Should MN have a Gender Identity (or similar) subsection?

[TheThermalStair]

I used to be a really active member of this board, for years. Similar with real life groups. Now there are very few discussions about most feminist issues, and tonnes and tonnes about trans/gender identity issues.

I FULLY UNDERSTAND why people are interested in talking about this, on all sides. But I miss discussions about other issues. To me having a feminist board that seems to be 90% gender chat isn't representative of the feminist issues that women face in the UK let alone in the rest of the world. The alternative would be to have a "non trans/gender identity related feminist chat board" but that feels pretty silly. Is it just me that feels this way?

For what it's worth, I think everyone here can't wait for the subject to be able to fuck off. The whole TRA movement has set women's rights back both in its approach to male/female and everything that means, but also by being a huge annoying distraction and delaying tactic for tackling those other issues.

I would be ecstatic if we never had another thread that discussed the competing rights of women and trans people.

Exactly. No one here wants to have their time and energy constantly consumed by this stuff. It's emotionally exhausting, depressing and often frightening. No one would be happier than any of the women here if we never had to speak about this again. But gender ideology is an existential threat to women's rights.

Partly because it's a drop in the ocean, partly because I'm sure loads of others like me who care about feminism but have been put off this section aren't looking any more.

Is that because you think that the conflicts that the rights of females are not important, non-existent (ie. There are no conflicts at all worth discussing) or that you are already involved in campaigning to find a way forward like many of this board and just want to discuss other issues as well?

In my RL feminist group probably only about one person in five or so was very interested in GC issues, so I'm intrigued about why it's different on here.

Many GC feminist women can't speak freely in general feminist groups because they have been taken over by gender identity ideology. That yours hasn't is excellent, but many women are wary of joining groups with those kind of people.

I think it’s an excellent idea to have a board specifically to discuss trans issues. The difficulty with the “start the topics you want to see” proposal, is that if 80% of the people following the FWR forum are here to talk about trans issues, they end up derailing any other topic to talk about that. If Mumsnet had a separate dedicated forum just to discuss trans issues - whether it impacted women, or was considered feminist, or not - then it would give space for other feminist topics to be discussed on the FWR forum. There’s lots of other really important topics that would benefit from having the space to be discussed, that are currently getting crowded out (not in any intentional or malicious way, but just by the overwhelming focus on trans issues). Surely having a separate board would benefit both?

@Lemmen

For what it's worth, I think everyone here can't wait for the subject to be able to fuck off. The whole TRA movement has set women's rights back both in its approach to male/female and everything that means, but also by being a huge annoying distraction and delaying tactic for tackling those other issues.

Thanks for this and the other thoughtful posts. This is what makes me sad and cross I think.

It's a bit arrogant to come in and try to police what is an incredibly fast moving and busy feminist space. It would also create loads more work for MNHQ as people would be posting things on the general FWR board all the time.

@TheThermalStair

"you can't expect to unilaterally change the focus of the feminist board"

Well I do realise that as I am just one person. I do wonder if the regular posters from 5 or 10 years ago are still here now and have all decided that GC stuff is the number one focus, or if the GC stuff has brought in a different lot of people and some of the old feminist crowd (or newcomers who would be interested in other feminist stuff) have just melted away.

It is called "feminism chat", but is actually "gender critical chat" if you glance down the list of threads.

In my RL feminist group probably only about one person in five or so was very interested in GC issues, so I'm intrigued about why it's different on here.

I'm really surprised it's a minority interest in your feminist group. In other places where I come across discussions about women's rights it always comes up because someone will have been accused somewhere of not been sufficiently inclusive (ie transphobic,ie didn't include men). This isn't a niche subject, it's about the definition of woman, so it keeps on coming up. Can't wait until it's an old story, but here we are

And yes, I've been here since 2013 ish. Name changed twice, once because it could be linked back to my TES account and once because I was stalked by someone who seemed determined to find me in real life. Now I no longer teach I don't care so much 😊

@Lemmen

For what it's worth, I think everyone here can't wait for the subject to be able to fuck off. The whole TRA movement has set women's rights back both in its approach to male/female and everything that means, but also by being a huge annoying distraction and delaying tactic for tackling those other issues.

Yep Never ever thought that this would become the fight of my political life. Never thought I'd ever have to think about "lesbian" penis. Never thought I'd be cancelling Guardian subscription in favour of the Times. But here we are.

I’m getting an “I was here first and all you newcomers should fuck off” vibe. It seems like a bit of a territorial pissing competition. Am I misreading?

Not this again.

Page 1 of the Women's Rights board.

Feminist protests in China and Japan
Single sex toilets, change in minister directions and why this is important to women
Labour party dismal failure at elections - its relevance to women who would really like to vote Labour and feel politically homeless
Sex role stereotypes in well known fiction
The safety and dignity of women in UK prisons
New sex abuse scandal of a girl in the north and how police massively failed in safeguarding
The new Equalities chief and law regarding sex as a protected characteristic
Being a single woman, discussion on an article
Porn obsession in society, it's impact on WAG
Government recognising the need for specific provisions for VAWG based on recent consultation
Nordic model demand: discussion of.

This is a board full of stuff about women's rights. There's a list of threads there all about women, women's rights, women's legal rights, women's politics, refuges, prisons, sex work, the law......

Do add whatever is missing. Start the threads on the topics you're interested in. Be the change you want to see in the world.

@Nellodee

I’m getting an “I was here first and all you newcomers should fuck off” vibe. It seems like a bit of a territorial pissing competition. Am I misreading?

LOL Nellodee quite right my bladder is exhausted from a busy afternoon.

I can see why it might come across that way but it's more a bit nostalgic, and wondering if some of the old energy across the feminist spectrum is still out there/could be revived.

Have already told myself to start/contribute to more threads, and I hope others will do so too.

Periodically someone comes in says something like this and then never actually starts any threads about other feminist topics. Please instead of trying to police our conversations by making us go into a sub section, post some threads and ignore the ones you don’t want to engage with. It’s pretty simple really.

@Artichokeleaves you've accidentally encouraged me by implying that others have suggested this too

Also your list is a bit disingenuous as you know full well loads of those threads are actually about the exact things I'm talking about.

@Nellodee

I’m getting an “I was here first and all you newcomers should fuck off” vibe. It seems like a bit of a territorial pissing competition. Am I misreading?

Yep you are wilfully misreading.

know full well loads of those threads are actually about the exact things I'm talking about.

Well, lots of threads about other aspects of feminism are going to touch on the fundamentals of who is a woman and what legal rights we have.

I do see that if there was a specific subsection it would be easier for critics to target etc, which obviously wouldn't be good

Wanda I'm not trying to police anyone's conversations and everyone can knock themselves out saying whatever they like. I'm also not pretending that I'm The Second Coming (or ... is it Fifth Coming?) Of Feminism and have loads of scintillating thread ideas right this instant.

You'll notice my thread title wasn't "everyone shut up" it was mooting a separate board. A lot of you will doubtless remember that was how this board started!!

If you can’t define what a woman is and you can’t see what is happening to women’s rights across the board, for instance female campaigners against fgm being bullied by trans activists, women losing their jobs, women being harassed and threatened, girls in schools being pressured into declaring their sexuality, girls at school not being able to have access to toilets free of boys, women’s prisons ffs, I don’t even know what to say.
There’s so many areas where this has affected, males coming into our spaces and taking over... or does none of that matter? I’m starting to get baffled by women who don’t get this.

'Accidentally encouraged you'? I was encouraging you to post what you wanted. I'm not sure why you hear that as hostile intentions.

Also your list is a bit disingenuous as you know full well loads of those threads are actually about the exact things I'm talking about.

Oh ffs.

Refuges: biggest current issues for women: some vulnerable women can't access them, funding going to cheaper mixed sex provisions, staffing issues at the top

Toilets and law: important, since some vulnerable women can't access them and gender neutral doesn't work, law and EHRC stuff seriously important for women on sex protections

Voting issues for women, massive lack of political interest in women's voices, needs, issues, misogyny....

I'm sorry you're not interested in the current serious legal, political and practical issues of the day for women, but it's a bit much to expect other women to stop talking about them and doing what they can for vulnerable women and women's rights because you'd rather they didn't mention any words you personally don't like talking about.

Try using the hide button and hide what you don't want to see. And on that list were multiple women's issues you'll be quite safe on.

The early days of the feminist board were a nightmare.

There were loads of trolls and MRAs constantly starting threads about how misogyny didn’t exist and how great bdsm was.

1. There's no other public internet forum where the impact of genderism on women can be discussed freely(ish).

1. A key tenet of genderism is to stop women talking about their sex. If we can't talk about sex we can't talk about sexism. If we can't talk about sexism we can't talk about topics such as VAWG, abortion, glass ceiling, prostitution, pay gap, data gaps.

1. If you want to be able to carry on talking about all those things you'll need to carry on talking about sex, and challenging the genderist narrative.

1. Women on here are therefore doing everyone a great service in keeping talking about genderism and it's impact on women's rights.

1. It's a bit rich to come and tell us off for doing so.

HTH

@LibertyMole

The early days of the feminist board were a nightmare.

There were loads of trolls and MRAs constantly starting threads about how misogyny didn’t exist and how great bdsm was.

Thanks for the trip down memory lane!

@TheThermalStair

Wanda I'm not trying to police anyone's conversations and everyone can knock themselves out saying whatever they like. I'm also not pretending that I'm The Second Coming (or ... is it Fifth Coming?) Of Feminism and have loads of scintillating thread ideas right this instant.

You'll notice my thread title wasn't "everyone shut up" it was mooting a separate board. A lot of you will doubtless remember that was how this board started!!

Then just start your own threads on whatever you want to talk about. IF it’s an area where males are trying to harass or insert themselves into the conversation then women will discuss that aspect on the thread. That what happens if there is context for that to happen.

None of us post about this stuff because we enjoy it.
It tedious and awful to have a daughter at home who is weeping because the boys in her school are saturated with porn, the girls are harassing her to declare her pronouns and she’s scared of walking home. It’s tedious to have grown up in a house where I was being forced to have an arranged marriage, it’s fucking tedious to have been in an abusive relationship with a violent man.

I don’t post here for fun, I post because there are things that matter and are affecting my life, the insertion of males into female spaces and the effect that is having on my daughter’s mental health is one of them.