Law Student Faces Disciplinary Action - Abertay Uni (Dundee)

[BuffysBigSister]

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9581035/Law-student-29-said-women-vaginas-faces-disciplinary-action-university.html

I am hoping someone will be able to tell me this is a made up story because if it's not I totally despair. How did we end up here??

@Grellbunt

I've noticed that a lot of women even my age are a bit offended by the suggestion that being "equal" doesn't necessarily mean "equally strong". They seem to think equality means females being seen/recognised as equal in the sense of "exactly the same as" men. Or indeed "just as good as" men (said without irony). Nuance really matters. But there's a real fear that any admission of difference will be used against us, as evidence that we are lesser. Hell, I believed it myself for a while. Internalised misogny?

I'v noticed this thinking in other areas, so i'm not sure it's misogyny as such. You see it on the focus on any disparities when looking at various groups. It isn't just about looking for ways in which there is an injustice or people are being treated differently. For a certain group, any disparity will be seen as meaning the groups are "not equal" by which they mean, not the same, even if there is nothing particularly wrong with the difference.

@Theeyeballsinthesky

Interview with Lisa here www.spiked-online.com/2021/05/18/i-am-being-investigated-by-my-university-for-saying-women-have-vaginas/

Seems even madder than we thought. She committed the heinous crime of saying that men are physically stronger than women and posted an article about fallon fox in a separate discussion about trans women and sport. That was where the lecturer turned off the chat

Okay, I now have some idea of who the lecturer for this module was and if it’s the person i think, she’s a TRA and poor Lisa wouldn’t have stood a chance.

Even if Scotland is a soon-to-be-independent nation, maybe the Abertay people will hear about what happened down at Essex recently, and they'll understand what they're likely to be accused of.

One reason I have my doubts CharlieParley about Lisa Keogh being unaware of the debate is that in one of the online discussions that got her into trouble she raised the issue of Fallon Fox. I wouldn't expect the unaware women you talked about would have had that name to mind.

It really doesn't matter what she knew or didn't know, how aware she was, etc.

She stated some facts. And for that might lose her chance at a degree and her chosen career.

How aware she was of the issues surrounding those facts is irrelevant.

www.abertay.ac.uk/staff-search/dr-lynsey-mitchell/

This is the lecturer who muted Lisa in the seminar. She’s deleted her LinkedIn and made her Twitter private but she has pronouns in her bio and it’s fairly obvious what side of the debate she is on. I think teaching staff should bear some of the responsibility here. You can’t shut someone down for holding a legitimate view.

I’m currently at uni doing an MA.
I’m very careful about what I discuss. I was still called a terf in a lecture and have been ostracized by a group of students, as a result I’ve not attended that class for 4 weeks.

University is not a safe place.

@Interestedparty132

www.abertay.ac.uk/staff-search/dr-lynsey-mitchell/

This is the lecturer who muted Lisa in the seminar. She’s deleted her LinkedIn and made her Twitter private but she has pronouns in her bio and it’s fairly obvious what side of the debate she is on. I think teaching staff should bear some of the responsibility here. You can’t shut someone down for holding a legitimate view.

Apparently “ Lynsey welcomes applications from perspective PhD candidates in . . .”. Doesn’t exactly fill one with confidence.

She absolutely does bear responsibility here. As does the lecturer in @IheartJKR case. Have you considered making a complaint?

@IheartJKR

I’m currently at uni doing an MA. I’m very careful about what I discuss. I was still called a terf in a lecture and have been ostracized by a group of students, as a result I’ve not attended that class for 4 weeks.

University is not a safe place.

I’m so sorry to hear that. It made my heart sink.

@IheartJKR

I’m currently at uni doing an MA. I’m very careful about what I discuss. I was still called a terf in a lecture and have been ostracized by a group of students, as a result I’ve not attended that class for 4 weeks.

University is not a safe place.

I’m so sorry to hear that. That is a complete disgrace. I dislike that this is framed as a ‘free speech’ issue with stating biological fact being seen as somehow controversial. It’s not controversial. It’s a statement of irrefutable fact. It’s like someone being punished for stating that the earth is round.

Although I cannot be fully out with my gender critical views due to my Stonewall Champion university employer, I am very clear with my students that a range of opinions are tolerated and that people should feel free to share what they think. I am disappointed that many of my colleagues don’t seem to subscribe to that at all.

There’s no point complaining.

The lecturers talk openly about JKR and ha e used the term terf themselves.

One lecturer in a Gender & Power module said that sex work was a legitimate option for working class girls. Apparently working class girls have very low self esteem and can’t even waitress in some places as it’s to intimidating being in fancy hotels etc.

One lecturer in a Gender & Power module said that sex work was a legitimate option for working class girls. Apparently working class girls have very low self esteem and can’t even waitress in some places as it’s to intimidating being in fancy hotels etc. The absolute ignorance of the difference between being impoverished and being working class is astounding. I can now understand when someone said 'students are coming out of University dumber than when they went in' why that might be the case.

Astoundingly ignorant

@IheartJKR

There’s no point complaining.

The lecturers talk openly about JKR and ha e used the term terf themselves.

One lecturer in a Gender & Power module said that sex work was a legitimate option for working class girls. Apparently working class girls have very low self esteem and can’t even waitress in some places as it’s to intimidating being in fancy hotels etc.

Fucking hell. It never ceases to astound me how people so highly educated can be so monumentally stupid. It’s probably of little comfort but there are some of us in academia who think like rational people and think these people are harmful and dangerous. As well as being totally off their rockers of course.

Her research explores how narratives of women are constructed in law and explores the 'dark side' of human rights...She is involved in individual and collaborative projects that will contribute to feminist understandings of women's rights in international law/international human rights law and how the language of human rights has been utilised by those who violate rights.

This is the person who muted Lisa for saying that men are stronger than women. This person researches international human rights laws in relation to women... and can't cope with hearing that men are physically stronger than women?

I shudder to think what damage this person's research might be doing.

@allmywhat

Her research explores how narratives of women are constructed in law and explores the 'dark side' of human rights...She is involved in individual and collaborative projects that will contribute to feminist understandings of women's rights in international law/international human rights law and how the language of human rights has been utilised by those who violate rights.

This is the person who muted Lisa for saying that men are stronger than women. This person researches international human rights laws in relation to women... and can't cope with hearing that men are physically stronger than women?

I shudder to think what damage this person's research might be doing.

I remember a while back, TRA prof Alison Phipps produced a ‘resource on gender’, which she posted on Twitter. Dr Mitchell was one of the people thanking her for it and saying that she would use it in her teaching. This is a link to the resource: twitter.com/alisonphipps/status/1372214006614753290?s=20

(You might have to go incognito if you’re blocked by Alison).

This thread, and particularly the posts of students such as @IheartJKR is asking me reflect on my teaching practice, to ensure I stick to asking questions, and trying to create an ethos where students can explore their thinking without implied pressure from me.

Actually, one of my undergrads wrote something interesting in their dissertation: that a "safe space" is somewhere where it's safe to be brave.

I think that's key - it's not about having your ideas agreed with, but feeling OK to disagree and not have personal or abusive consequences.

@IntoAir

Exactly. A safe space is not a space where everyone agrees with you, which is what a lot of students seem to think it is.

The incident I spoke about about above is not the only occasion where I have been horrified by the behaviour of uni staff and some students.

During a module on male violence, a non binary student with the pronouns they/ them, were given a platform where we were all instructed to listen to how upset they felt that the sex they presented as outwardly, were vilified and how it made them feel ‘unsafe’ that people may regard them as predators as a result.

I just sat agog.

If a safe space is to be a space where no one hears anything they might object to then either it's a space where there's only one permitted set of views and anyone not accepting them has to be silent, or it's a space that denies entry to those not accepting the permitted set of views.

A university teacher seeking to enforce this is utterly alien to me.

it's a space where there's only one permitted set of views and anyone not accepting them has to be silent

Which is hardly safe for them!

Indeed. So for a safe space to be safe it has to be a monoculture in terms of ideas meaning excluding those who think outside of that monoculture. That's not a university, it's an indoctrination space.

Harking back a little: this "all men are rapists" statement. It obviously is not true, because a trans man with a vagina but no penis surely cannot commit rape, but we have been repeatedly told that just as trans women are women, trans men are men.

I think the student who made this claim is improperly woke and should be taken away for re-education, possibly in a small room without any lights. It's all sheheittheyveetc deserves for such wrongthink.

@nauticant

One reason I have my doubts CharlieParley about Lisa Keogh being unaware of the debate is that in one of the online discussions that got her into trouble she raised the issue of Fallon Fox. I wouldn't expect the unaware women you talked about would have had that name to mind.

I should have been clearer in my response to you. My "Entirely possible" was meant to show my agreement with your statement. I also think that it's entirely possible that she is aware of the debate, but not immersed in the feminist discourse, because of what she said and how she said it.

@IheartJKR

There’s no point complaining.

The lecturers talk openly about JKR and ha e used the term terf themselves.

One lecturer in a Gender & Power module said that sex work was a legitimate option for working class girls. Apparently working class girls have very low self esteem and can’t even waitress in some places as it’s to intimidating being in fancy hotels etc.

That is a terrible thing to say. I was a working class girl who got a job in a four star hotel at 16 whilst at school and I gained such a lot from it, so much good stuff about convivial life and well mannered social interaction, understanding healthy food and wine. It really upped my confidence.

Universities are committing to social mobility, your lecturer would do well using some of Michel Roux and Jamie Oliver's ideas and programmes on TV about how the hospitality trade can change lives.

Update in the Times, Abertay is going ahead with disciplinary action:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/1cea262c-b955-11eb-9a91-c8c89595f50e?shareToken=a8aa1c0ffba39e862c3fd61a5ff956bc

[quote Igneococcus]Update in the Times, Abertay is going ahead with disciplinary action:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/1cea262c-b955-11eb-9a91-c8c89595f50e?shareToken=a8aa1c0ffba39e862c3fd61a5ff956bc[/quote]
WTAF!