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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Law Student Faces Disciplinary Action - Abertay Uni (Dundee)

273 replies

BuffysBigSister · 15/05/2021 06:40

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9581035/Law-student-29-said-women-vaginas-faces-disciplinary-action-university.html

I am hoping someone will be able to tell me this is a made up story because if it's not I totally despair. How did we end up here??

OP posts:
Carriemac · 18/05/2021 10:17

She's coming across as very sensible

WarriorN · 18/05/2021 10:18

She is.

She was asked her opinion.

I hope she wasn't set up.

Abhannmor · 18/05/2021 10:18

On Woman's Hour now

nauticant · 18/05/2021 10:19

It's an interview. However, I'm not convinced by her claim of being unaware of the contentious debate that had been going on around trans issues and what is a woman.

WarriorN · 18/05/2021 10:19

That's why I wonder if she's been set up to be gotcha'd

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 18/05/2021 10:21

Wow, this is quite hard to take seriously from an academic institution - why would a uni want to limit what students say? Isn't debate and exploration of ideas what universities are for?

She speaks very well.

WarriorN · 18/05/2021 10:25

So, was Davina's documentary transphobic?

Ffs.

WinterTrees · 18/05/2021 10:26

They are covering this very much as a free speech issue rather than women's rights. Something EB said early in the piece along the lines of 'we're not getting involved in the debate around the opinion you expressed' made it clear that this is the only way they feel able to talk about it. I'm not sure whether that's cowardice or a stroke of minor genius.

nauticant · 18/05/2021 10:30

One positive is to see loads of comments on twitter, and presumably being sent to the Woman's Hour team, that the segment with Lisa Keogh was transphobic and shouldn't have been broadcast. There'll be a fair bit of peaking going on, including of Emma Barnett who I can't imagine reacting at all well to such a scolding.

WarriorN · 18/05/2021 10:31

I think it's a stroke of minor genius.

And she'll be using all the pronouns and "correct" language whilst allowing women the space to share their opinions and experiences under the banner of free speech.

It's the only way to keep the conversation going, just as here.

WH has had a transwidow on before; I do hope there will be a repeat guest visit soon.

The test will be whether they discuss the Olympics.

WarriorN · 18/05/2021 10:31

Lisa, you were a star, well done.

IntoAir · 18/05/2021 10:33

I'm not convinced by her claim of being unaware of the contentious debate that had been going on around trans issues and what is a woman.

I wouldn't be so sure. A lot of women are unaware of this debate - viz. whenever someone posts a version of "WTF, cervix-havers?" on AIBU

WarriorN · 18/05/2021 10:34

To be honest, it doesn't matter.

Anyone can say what she said and shouldn't be forced to retract or loose their degree.

Pota2 · 18/05/2021 10:41

@nauticant

It's an interview. However, I'm not convinced by her claim of being unaware of the contentious debate that had been going on around trans issues and what is a woman.
Maybe not but to be honest I pretend to be unaware sometimes and then look surprised and confused when someone tries to explain that men can give birth etc and sometimes it makes them so embarrassed that they drop the subject. Because they hear how ludicrous it sounds.
vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 18/05/2021 10:45

She's very brave to be talking publicly about it while the uni investigation is ongoing.

Kind of puts them on the spot. I think it's a wise tactic, having seen what Edinburgh uni has been up to, maybe getting a bit of sunlight on her situation is a good move.

Besides, I'd give her a job on the basis of that interview. Fantastic speaker.

nauticant · 18/05/2021 10:48

I suppose it's because my focus is more about being effective in getting the story out to the people in the middle or those who are unaware. If a social media post comes up showing that she had been aware, that would be used by trans activists to steer the row discussion into going after her character and away from the real issues.

SoMuchForSummerLove · 18/05/2021 11:05

Oh I'd like to listen to this later!

Good on you Lisa, for having the courage to speak up, and stand up for yourself.

JustcameoutGC · 18/05/2021 11:15

I studies for a degree in biological sciences at a Scottish university in the 90s. In one tutorial, which was mixed between biology students and medics, we explored the impact of the HIV/AIDS epidemic and how it should be managed in society.

There were a few very vocal, very well spoken medics, (clearly spent time in the debating club of posh schools) who argued that people with HIV/AIDs should be segregated ), or at the very least they should have to declare their status on everything on everything - schools, mortgages - to class mates..

To begin with many in the class just nodded along despite the homophobic and plain nasty views on display. The tutor let this conversation play out, prompting them to take it to the natural conclusion (one medic thought putting people with AIDS on an island was best).

Myself and others began to challenge this way of thinking, pointed out that if we did this with HIV / AIDS then why not all communicable diseases, that this was horrifically discriminatory, that it was a total over reaction given what was known then about the disease, and that it simply wasn't humane.

By allowing the dialogue to unfold, people started to think for themselves, challenge points being put forward very confidently by extremely well spoken and domineering public school boys. The consensus at the end of this was broadly the right one, but we only got there because no-one was censored, even when saying really quite abhorrent things, and everyone was prompted to think for themselves and form their own views. This is how academia should work.

SoMuchForSummerLove · 18/05/2021 12:38

@JustcameoutGC we are clearly relics from another era. I also went to a Scottish university and I can't imagine what this issue would have done to my degree subject.

Grammarnut · 18/05/2021 14:15

It's not clear that the group was all female, but Keogh herself said that the women who called her out were younger than herself. That she was muted is a disgrace.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 18/05/2021 14:50

She may have been aware to some degree but not clued up about the virulent nature of the debate.

Thecatonthemat · 18/05/2021 15:03

Interesting that EB tiptoed around the content. Lisa also, but she was good in sticking to what happened in terms of the right to express an opinion. It wouldn’t have done any harm to say there are certain topics relating to women and our biology that are more likely to be censored when spoken by women. I don’t believe for one minute either is unaware of this.

Theeyeballsinthesky · 18/05/2021 19:53

Interview with Lisa here
www.spiked-online.com/2021/05/18/i-am-being-investigated-by-my-university-for-saying-women-have-vaginas/

Seems even madder than we thought. She committed the heinous crime of saying that men are physically stronger than women and posted an article about fallon fox in a separate discussion about trans women and sport. That was where the lecturer turned off the chat

Grellbunt · 18/05/2021 20:28

I've noticed that a lot of women even my age are a bit offended by the suggestion that being "equal" doesn't necessarily mean "equally strong". They seem to think equality means females being seen/recognised as equal in the sense of "exactly the same as" men. Or indeed "just as good as" men (said without irony). Nuance really matters. But there's a real fear that any admission of difference will be used against us, as evidence that we are lesser. Hell, I believed it myself for a while. Internalised misogny?

CharlieParley · 18/05/2021 20:39

@nauticant

It's an interview. However, I'm not convinced by her claim of being unaware of the contentious debate that had been going on around trans issues and what is a woman.
Entirely possible.

I would like to point out however that I was in the presence of a lot of female family members aged between 6 months and 70+ recently, most of whom are wholly unaware of the debate. They are not that political nor are most of them university educated. They work very hard in low-paid jobs and if they have any spare time or energy, it is spent on their family and friends. Some know about it because they know about my campaigning for women's rights. Although they agree with my views on self-id, they are not sufficiently interested to read up on it or follow the developments of the sex and gender debate.

It seems impossible when you're as immersed in this as I have been, but many women I meet still don't know much about this. And to be honest, many still disbelieve that any of this is going on.