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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Law Student Faces Disciplinary Action - Abertay Uni (Dundee)

273 replies

BuffysBigSister · 15/05/2021 06:40

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9581035/Law-student-29-said-women-vaginas-faces-disciplinary-action-university.html

I am hoping someone will be able to tell me this is a made up story because if it's not I totally despair. How did we end up here??

OP posts:
Maduixa · 17/05/2021 13:35

Interesting take in the Czech press, where a “ha ha, look at these wacky Brits!” puff piece was seriously re-tweeted by an MP from KDU-ČSL (roughly the equivalent of the UK Lib Dems) - calling it out as a human rights violation typical of "the UK under Conservative rule" and generating a discussion about how everyone must be vigilant to make sure this kind of right wing regressive authoritarianism doesn’t happen in the Czech Republic. (The title of his tweet translates roughly to “Supposedly, this isn’t a joke :-/ ”)

This is pretty much the same thing that was said about the (Scottish) Hate Crimes Bill, which provoked outrage here in C/E Europe (former Soviet Bloc/Warsaw Pact countries, now in the EU or aspiring to be), where people lived under absolute and unapologetic authoritarianism and don't want or excuse any more of it.

I'm not making any judgement about what happened - I don't think we can, as the news reports are so dependent on context and we don't have the context - just find it interesting how this is clearly perceived as regressive and right in one part of Europe, and progressive and left in another.

MissBarbary · 17/05/2021 13:42

@Ereshkigalangcleg

I made the point because you (general you) would generally not be defending someone who appears to buy into rape myths.

I don't agree with people who buy into rape myths (the majority of the population). I don't think that it means they are beyond redemption in terms of the careers they can practice. I believe people can learn and that rape myths can be tackled. That's a very "cancel culture" kind of worldview, MissBarbary. Surprised at your posts on this.

I see you are still putting your own imaginative spin on what I said. At no point did I say Keogh should be thrown off her course or cancelled but carry on with the inventions.
TalkingFeminism · 17/05/2021 15:25

@IntoAir

I think Lisa Keogh is allowed to have these views and potentially be challenged on them. She shouldn’t be subject to disciplinary procedures if she disagrees with someone.

Yes, this is the main point, I think.

Following through the Twitter links, and screen shots here, there seems to be an animosity between Ms Keogh and other students. Fair enough, they don't all have to be friends, but to "weaponise" the complaints system in this way is an overreaction.

But as PP have said, if a student makes a formal complaint, the university is bound to investigate it. However, there are levels of action.

At my place, they'd start with an informal mediation: bring both parties together to hear both points of view.

From what I can see, that's as far as this needs to go. The complainants and Ms Keogh should be told that it is OK for people to hold different views and to be disagreed with. And that they both need to do this in a way which is not dismissive or disrespectful of individuals in the room.

And they all need to be reminded that when discussing difficult subjects, a university seminar is looking at these things in the abstract, and no-one should take it personally.

I teach second-wave feminist cultural/literary history and theory. I always start by outlining the distinctions between sex (biological) and gender (cultural), and to insist on language which mirrors this men/male (sex) and masculine (gender), and female/woman (sex) and feminine (gender). I stress that we are not discussing individuals, but classes or categories, and social/cultural trends.

So I try to ensure there's an ethos in the class where the young men don't feel defensive about their sex, and can discuss gender stereotypes more freely.

It's possible to do this, I would imagine, with students with experiences of violence and sexual violence. In fact, for female survivors of abuse or sexual violence, it might be quite liberating to have these discussions - to see the cultural trends, and feel less like it's their individual "fault."

Totally agree, @IntoAir, with the point regarding levels of action. I suspect that at my university, if the complaint was upheld, the student would be required to make an apology.

I also love the way you talk about teaching feminist history and theory. I said earlier that I wondered whether this complaint actually reflects worst on the lecturer, as she should have had a plan about how to run a class in which students might have strong personal convictions and/or have suffered traumatic experiences. I think lecturers need to set some parameters or guidance for acceptable contributions and debate, but ultimately this is not group therapy, and there are limits on the degree to which students can reasonably expect other students to moderate their responses.

SoMuchForSummerLove · 17/05/2021 15:40

I haven't read the full thread yet (it makes me too angry really) but I just noticed that the university have posted a bland pointless response

www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/local/dundee/2230399/abertay-principal-defends-universitys-stance-in-women-have-vaginas-row/

SmokedDuck · 17/05/2021 16:28

Does that sort of thing happen a lot now where people bring in their personal experience to a class?

I can't picture having done that in university. Maybe if I thought somehow it would be really useful to the general discussion and other students, but even then I would have been hesitant to bring up things that were so personal in that environment, it would feel like an invasion of privacy.

stonecat · 17/05/2021 16:36

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SoMuchForSummerLove · 17/05/2021 16:43

I know. It disturbs me that in the article it states that:

"students are free to express any lawful views they wish to, as long as this is not done in an intolerant or abusive way.”

Problem is: simply saying that women have vaginas is considered abusive by many people now (it would seem). So, essentially, 'abusive' is in the eye of the beholder. It's basically a thought crime.

Carriemac · 17/05/2021 16:45

How is a lawful view intolerant?

Fernlake · 17/05/2021 16:56

DdraigGoch

Fernlake
The course should start from the POV that the majority of students will believe the myths to be fact.

Exactly. I can't believe it's not a fundamental part of the course. It certainly should be.

Should it? The law graduates on here may know better but I would assume that law school only covers the technical side, not the ethics of whether women should be able to walk down dark streets or wear short skirts without a predator taking it as an invitation.

I wasn't really getting at it being a lesson on ethics. More that if an opposing counsel is going to rely on rape myths to influence a jury, then surely it's something that any law student going into the field would need to be able to effectively counter?

Pota2 · 17/05/2021 17:06

@SmokedDuck

Does that sort of thing happen a lot now where people bring in their personal experience to a class?

I can't picture having done that in university. Maybe if I thought somehow it would be really useful to the general discussion and other students, but even then I would have been hesitant to bring up things that were so personal in that environment, it would feel like an invasion of privacy.

Yeah more than in the past I’d say. They’re often encouraged to do so too. Lots of academics are also keen on sharing stuff that maybe in the past would have been seen as private. I’ve seen stories of suicide attempts, nervous breakdowns, domestic abuse, drug addiction, self-harm, rape, abortion and alcoholism shared on social media by academics. Students often use social media to do the same. In a way it’s good that people feel able to talk about these things. In another way, it can sometimes feel a bit uncomfortable because it’s hard to know how to react. I have no idea what I’d have done if my university tutors had done that when I was a student. I knew next to nothing about their private lives and that’s how I preferred it. They also knew nothing about my life. These days, many of those boundaries have been broken down and I’m not 100% sure if that’s a good thing.
stonecat · 17/05/2021 17:12

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Nonmaquillee · 17/05/2021 22:46

@Maduixa

Interesting take in the Czech press, where a “ha ha, look at these wacky Brits!” puff piece was seriously re-tweeted by an MP from KDU-ČSL (roughly the equivalent of the UK Lib Dems) - calling it out as a human rights violation typical of "the UK under Conservative rule" and generating a discussion about how everyone must be vigilant to make sure this kind of right wing regressive authoritarianism doesn’t happen in the Czech Republic. (The title of his tweet translates roughly to “Supposedly, this isn’t a joke :-/ ”)

This is pretty much the same thing that was said about the (Scottish) Hate Crimes Bill, which provoked outrage here in C/E Europe (former Soviet Bloc/Warsaw Pact countries, now in the EU or aspiring to be), where people lived under absolute and unapologetic authoritarianism and don't want or excuse any more of it.

I'm not making any judgement about what happened - I don't think we can, as the news reports are so dependent on context and we don't have the context - just find it interesting how this is clearly perceived as regressive and right in one part of Europe, and progressive and left in another.

This is really interesting- thank you for posting this.
Grellbunt · 17/05/2021 23:16

@SmokedDuck

Does that sort of thing happen a lot now where people bring in their personal experience to a class?

I can't picture having done that in university. Maybe if I thought somehow it would be really useful to the general discussion and other students, but even then I would have been hesitant to bring up things that were so personal in that environment, it would feel like an invasion of privacy.

I agree with you - it just sounds so unprofessional. Very odd.
Grellbunt · 17/05/2021 23:18

Sorry I've just seen the response about sharing private lives - gobsmacked. So wrong. What about professionalism, maintaining boundaries, avoiding conflicts of interest, neutrality vis a vis marking etc. I just don't understand it.

GCAcademic · 18/05/2021 06:08

@Grellbunt

Sorry I've just seen the response about sharing private lives - gobsmacked. So wrong. What about professionalism, maintaining boundaries, avoiding conflicts of interest, neutrality vis a vis marking etc. I just don't understand it.
There are certain (usually early career) academics on Twitter who claim that professionalism is white supremacy. Which certainly seems like a convenient excuse for their awful, often bullying, behaviour.
Iamanaubergine · 18/05/2021 09:32

Just seen that Lisa Keogh is on Woman’s Hour today (Tuesday) if anyone wants to listen in.

nauticant · 18/05/2021 09:32

Today's Woman's Hour at 10am:

Women spies; Second chances; Lisa Keogh; Home abortion rules

nauticant · 18/05/2021 09:33

Beaten by 14 seconds!

Iamanaubergine · 18/05/2021 09:39
Grin
Pota2 · 18/05/2021 09:40

There are certain (usually early career) academics on Twitter who claim that professionalism is white supremacy. Which certainly seems like a convenient excuse for their awful, often bullying, behaviour.

Ain’t that the truth!

WarriorN · 18/05/2021 09:59

I think this is to be on woman's hour now....

WarriorN · 18/05/2021 09:59

Dammit, sorry....!

WarriorN · 18/05/2021 10:00

Separate thread?

WarriorN · 18/05/2021 10:08

Is this just going to be about "speaking out" or about her actual case?

WarriorN · 18/05/2021 10:13

Ah good she's actually on.

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