Law Student Faces Disciplinary Action - Abertay Uni (Dundee)

[BuffysBigSister]

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9581035/Law-student-29-said-women-vaginas-faces-disciplinary-action-university.html

I am hoping someone will be able to tell me this is a made up story because if it's not I totally despair. How did we end up here??

@DdraigGoch

Some students have even suggested that rape law should not be taught because of its potential to cause "distress"

So at some point in the future we may ponder why successful rape convictions remain at an all-time low. We will wonder why there is a shortage of prosecution barristers with the ability to argue the case in court.

In real life quite a lot of law isn't taught at university but is learned by practical experience. My field is one of the specialties accredited by the Law Society but was barely touched on at university beyond- it exists but it's too specialised to teach at undergraduate level.

"Those tweets are limited to approved viewers so don't shed much light."

She's obviously locked her account since posting earlier.

This isn't all she said but they are the only screen shots I caught.

There's probably going to be a lot of spin on both sides to determine what's actually been said, what justified complaints and what was worthy of an investigation. But as there's a recording, then hopefully there's going to be clear evidence of what was actually said, in what context, and whether any of the complaints were justified or petty or somewhere in between.

its mad , i cant get my head around all this insanity . im non too fussed about my 12 yr old attending uni if she doesnt want to if this is the sort of crap that goes on there

Those tweets are limited to approved viewers so don't shed much light.

When they were visible what they did rather effectively was do a hatchet job on Lisa Keogh, without any evidence, and were taken to be the authoritative version by many on twitter.

Abertay University have lost control of this situation and if they had any sense they'd be motivated to be transparent and even-handed. That would have the benefit of working to limit reputational damage to their institution. The downside is that it would involve giving weight to both sides in this dispute which as we know is currently asking for trouble.

@TheShadowyFeminist

Not sure if it's been posted already but one of the students who complained has posted to try & justify the complaints made.

Link to tweets here

There's a recording of what happened & what was said, which so far hasn't been released (but I would predict someone will at some point).

Not sure this complainant really makes the case for the complaint. Vague reference to 'years of this' she understands so the usual implied character shredding with v little/no actual proof.

Appears to have been hidden

In real life quite a lot of law isn't taught at university but is learned by practical experience. My field is one of the specialties accredited by the Law Society but was barely touched on at university beyond- it exists but it's too specialised to teach at undergraduate level.
Undoubtedly. Doesn't mean that sexual offences ought to be skimmed over at universities, they are a significant part of criminal law.

@DdraigGoch

In real life quite a lot of law isn't taught at university but is learned by practical experience. My field is one of the specialties accredited by the Law Society but was barely touched on at university beyond- it exists but it's too specialised to teach at undergraduate level. Undoubtedly. Doesn't mean that sexual offences ought to be skimmed over at universities, they are a significant part of criminal law.

Well the reality when I was at university (and that was a proper University, not a converted technical college) is they were "skimmed over" as part of the general , compulsory, criminal law course. There's simply too much to pack in to go into detail. The post about there being no-one available to prosecute such offences is over- dramatic scare-mongering.

The actual conduct of a court case would be a post- graduate diploma course anyway, not undergraduate. The Diploma has changed shape many times since I did it. I vaguely recall doing Civil Evidence and Procedure. I didn't do Criminal Evidence and Procedure. There always was and always will be students, post- grads and trainees who want to do criminal law and those who wouldn't touch it with a barge pole.

I am aware that on some law degrees in the UK, sexual offences are not even covered or only covered in the briefest detail due to the fact that they can be triggering to victims. I don’t think this is a good approach at all. It is a very sexist approach too in that victims of sexual assault are predominantly female. I am no fan of what aboutery but what about male victims of violence? Why is it okay to talk about someone having the guts punched out of them in a pub when there’s probably a few students who have had that happen to them but not okay to talk about the legal mechanics of rape?

I have seen the screenshots posted above and I still think the university is wrong here. First of all, a seminar is not really a place to share experiences like this so I am a bit uncomfortable with the idea that several students had disclosed that they were victims as I wonder how that came about. However, if someone does share something like that, of course people need to be sensitive to it. At the same time, they should be able to discuss the legal mechanics of rape and criminal evidence, for instance one question in rape is whether the defendant reasonably believed that the complainant consented. That should be able to be discussed in a hypothetical scenario even if some people are victims of sexual violence. Just as no thought would be given to discussing self-defence when there’s a male victim of violence in the classroom.

The lecturer also needs to take responsibility for steering the conversation here. They shouldn’t just sit back and allow the students to turn the seminar into a therapy session. They need to be firm that, although some people may be upset by content, we are talking about how the law works here and it’s not always pleasant. Perhaps there needs to be one huge trigger warning for anyone signing up to do a law degree so that they know that they may encounter difficult issues.

And yeah, try being a criminal lawyer who ‘doesn’t do sexual offences’. I don’t think anyone would employ you.

Reminds me of the young members of staff who worked for JKR’s publishing company who refused to work with any “transphobic” writers. Just unbelievable.

Still reading through the the thread but Jesus, I'd never heard that ^ before! Do you know what happened with them? I don't know anything about working for a publishing company but surely if you're refusing to do your job you'd get fired? How entitled!!

Yes, BlaBla. I don’t know the details but this happened.

Entitled, smug, arrogant, not realising how bloody lucky they are to have a job in publishing...

When I was at (Scots) law school there were compulsory criminal law classes and they were largely technical covering actus reus, mens rea, common law crimes, statutory crimes, crimes of outcome/intent etc. Not really much to do with victims or perpetrators, genders, or anything like that.

I am assuming this was a specialised class. There were classes such as 'law and gender' and 'criminal justice' in later years at honours level which delved in depth into theories of crime and punishment etc. There's no requirement for criminal honours though and plenty choose other topics (although criminal topics were very much seen as the sexy and cool choices when I was there!)

Tbh if I thought I'd be triggered or upset by something in an honours class I doubt I'd choose it but maybe that's my privilege talking or something...

Its possible there's more to this story than meets the eye but part of university is meeting others who are vocal about their opinions, which you might not like. Challenging yourself and others is all part of it.

@EverythingWasGolden

When I was at (Scots) law school there were compulsory criminal law classes and they were largely technical covering actus reus, mens rea, common law crimes, statutory crimes, crimes of outcome/intent etc. Not really much to do with victims or perpetrators, genders, or anything like that.

I am assuming this was a specialised class. There were classes such as 'law and gender' and 'criminal justice' in later years at honours level which delved in depth into theories of crime and punishment etc. There's no requirement for criminal honours though and plenty choose other topics (although criminal topics were very much seen as the sexy and cool choices when I was there!)

Tbh if I thought I'd be triggered or upset by something in an honours class I doubt I'd choose it but maybe that's my privilege talking or something...

Its possible there's more to this story than meets the eye but part of university is meeting others who are vocal about their opinions, which you might not like. Challenging yourself and others is all part of it.

Same here- the compulsory element was the technicalities rather than detail. I had no interest in Criminal law and didn't do anything beyond that. I'm sure there are plenty of students who feel otherwise.

This feed has more information including this post.

If, and that's a big if of course, Keogh did say this I doubt you(general you) would want her prosecuting sex crimes.

It still doesn't merit her being reported for disciplinary action just for saying it unless it did dissolve into personal attack or aggressive language but we don't have that information.

mobile.twitter.com/ThatBenGunn/status/1393623118586040322

There are loads of women, and men, who say don't do this, or that, in the hope women will evade attack. The police even say it.

It's focusing on the wrong thing and needs unpacking. And usually, as soon as that happens the layers lift and one gains more clarity.

It's an opportunity to inform. I'm having difficulty imagining how it would lead to an investigation.

If, and that's a big if of course, Keogh did say this I doubt you(general you) would want her prosecuting sex crimes.

Do we want people to be barred from their degree course or not allowed to graduate or become a lawyer for an poorly articulated, offhand comment, MissBarbary? I guess that would rule out any man who expressed a slightly dodgy opinion at uni one day too, and I'm absolutely sure none of them are prosecuting sex crimes.

Come on, this is not the point.

There are loads of women, and men, who say don't do this, or that, in the hope women will evade attack. The police even say it.

Exactly. I don't agree, but I understand why they believe these things. As a survivor I've argued online with other women about it, and it is a form of "just world fallacy" that rape mostly only happens if you're careless enough to let it.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

If, and that's a big if of course, Keogh did say this I doubt you(general you) would want her prosecuting sex crimes.

Do we want people to be barred from their degree course or not allowed to graduate or become a lawyer for an poorly articulated, offhand comment, MissBarbary? I guess that would rule out any man who expressed a slightly dodgy opinion at uni one day too, and I'm absolutely sure none of them are prosecuting sex crimes.

Come on, this is not the point.

Nice straw man , (or is it a straw feminist?) there. I'm going to respond to post which has made up something I didn't say.

Try engaging, rather than getting defensive. It is absolutely what you implied about her suitability to prosecute sex crimes.

It doesnt seem to me like thats a crime serious enough to raise a complaint over. If she said that, it would have been a good time to introduce rape myths into the lesson.

It also seems that trainee lawyers think they can discuss the details of the disciplinary in public before the hearing.

If she said that, it would have been a good time to introduce rape myths into the lesson.

Yes, exactly.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Try engaging, rather than getting defensive. It is absolutely what you implied about her suitability to prosecute sex crimes.

Another straw feminist reply; try reading what I wrote.

I said nothing at all about being kicked out of her course- that's your over- active imagination; or perhaps you think a person who appears to buy into rape myths would be a good prosecutor of sex - crimes?.

The lecturer also needs to take responsibility for steering the conversation here. They shouldn’t just sit back and allow the students to turn the seminar into a therapy session. They need to be firm that, although some people may be upset by content, we are talking about how the law works here and it’s not always pleasant. Perhaps there needs to be one huge trigger warning for anyone signing up to do a law degree so that they know that they may encounter difficult issues.

Completely agree.

I said nothing at all about being kicked out of her course- that's your over- active imagination; or perhaps you think a person who appears to buy into rape myths would be a good prosecutor of sex - crimes?.

Why is it remotely relevant to her being reported, and relevant to this thread, if you don't think it is reasonable for her to be disciplined in any way for believing what many many other people, including some rape survivors, believe about women "protecting themselves". How else could she be prevented "from prosecuting sex crimes"? Don't be disingenuous.

Your words:

If, and that's a big if of course, Keogh did say this I doubt you(general you) would want her prosecuting sex crimes.

There are a lot of people I don't think should be prosecuting sex crimes. Many of them are far worse than a woman on a general law course who unthinkingly buys into rape myths, as probably a large proportion of the other students also do. The thing about rape myths is that most people believe them.

Isn't that the whole point of learning to be a lawyer? That someone may have bought into a rape myth and can be put right? During the time they are actually learning about the law? Around sex offences? And how to represent victims, or offenders?

There has to be more to it, surely. You don't get 'investigated' for this.