Law Student Faces Disciplinary Action - Abertay Uni (Dundee)

[BuffysBigSister]

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9581035/Law-student-29-said-women-vaginas-faces-disciplinary-action-university.html

I am hoping someone will be able to tell me this is a made up story because if it's not I totally despair. How did we end up here??

Should be disciplining the academic who is clearly bullying the student and muting free speech.

Thanks for answering my query, Tatties and Neeps (am half Scottish so I know what neeps are 😂)

Re the information in your text book on GD: it’s bullshit, and it needs challenging. I have brought up four children of both sexes and they have always played with “toys”. They never heard the expression “girls’/boys’ toys” because....such a thing doesn’t exist outside the marketing of Toys R Us etc / the mindsets of deeply conservative parents who are desperate for kids to conform to a regressive stereotype. So all my kids had footballs, played with Lego (yes, the boys even played with the pink stuff that was cynically marketed at girls), all climbed trees, all at one stage or another donned a tutu..... If anyone had suggested that they were “trans” I would have kicked them out of my house 😂

Toys are toys, clothes are clothes, colours are colours. Gender ideology is a pernicious social construct that aims to keep everyone in a narrow little box. Please, please challenge what you read in this area of your course. Please.

So is the biology department under the same restrictions then? Seriously, what happens to students studying anatomy, physiology and genetics etc? Are THEY allowed to discuss biological reality in their lectures and seminars, or are they 'policed' too?
This is utter madness.

Not seeing many tweets in support of Abertay's actions

It's bizarre, where are all the anime avatars shouting bigot?

The law is reason free from passion.

I don't think Aristotle envisioned this sorry state of affairs.

Every so often I forget about the way the world is today and then I come across these articles that remind me biology is now discriminatory hate speech, and still, I am just baffled every single time.

I really, genuinely don’t understand how so many people have bought into this and how we are heading toward a blanket ban of biology.

@RoyalCorgi

The almost comical thing about this is that it was in a law seminar. If law students can't discuss ideas, then who can?

I would actually like to know the backstory here. Legally not all people with vaginas are men and not all women have vaginas. You (general gender critical you) don't like that but until you (general you) get the law changed that is the law. I would be interested to know exactly what caused the tutor to mute her- was it what she was saying or the way it was expressed?

There's plenty of legislation from the Scottish Government which I personally think is dreadful and has adversecimplications for me ( nothing to do with gender issues) but it would be completely inappropriate for me in a teaching / training situation (which I do, although not at University) to get into a heated argument about why such laws are dreadful.

I think a way to help would be to contact managers at Abertay and let them know how important it is that they address what seems to be a pretty hostile climate for women, and investigate the claims that a student was subjected to abuse and muted by a lecturer, which is the real problem here. Some relevant addresses:

Professor Nigel Seaton Principal of Abertay [email protected]
Professor Mohamed Branine, Dean of Business, Law and Social Sciences [email protected]
Dr Luke Millard, Dean of Teaching & Learning [email protected]
Mr James Nicholson, Director of Student & Academic Services [email protected]
Ms Sheena Stewart, University Secretary [email protected]

But a grc is a legal fiction with exemptions isn't it. As in, legal exemptions that ensure safety, fairness and medical accuracy.
So you'd expect someone studying law to be able to voice the distinction without consequence because as you say, it's the law.

Not sure if it's been posted already but one of the students who complained has posted to try & justify the complaints made.

Link to tweets here

There's a recording of what happened & what was said, which so far hasn't been released (but I would predict someone will at some point).

Not sure this complainant really makes the case for the complaint. Vague reference to 'years of this' she understands so the usual implied character shredding with v little/no actual proof.

@TheShadowyFeminist

Not sure if it's been posted already but one of the students who complained has posted to try & justify the complaints made.

Link to tweets here

There's a recording of what happened & what was said, which so far hasn't been released (but I would predict someone will at some point).

Not sure this complainant really makes the case for the complaint. Vague reference to 'years of this' she understands so the usual implied character shredding with v little/no actual proof.

Pronouns in bio obviously 🙄

I'm an academic in a UK Law School, and have some involvement in student misconduct proceedings. A few thoughts:

First, if a student(s) brings a formal complaint regarding the behaviour of another student in a class, we cannot just dismiss it out of hand - we have to investigate it. So I would be reluctant to put any weight on the mere fact that the university is conducting an investigation.

Second, having read the tweets from Abertay, I think it is problematic that they say both that press reports are 'inaccurate' and that they don't wish to comment on the particular case. I think if you're going to use the word 'inaccurate', you need to be REALLY clear as to where the inaccuracy lies.

Third, if I was handling this complaint, my main questions would relate to whether the student was conducting themselves in a way that was offensive or intimidating to others, in terms of calling people names, yelling at them, consistently speaking over them, making inflammatory remarks, etc. If there was evidence of this, I'd also want to hear about the behaviour of others in the room and of how the lecturer handled this situation. Trans issues elicit strongly held views, and if I were to include such discussions in my classroom, I'd think very carefully in advance about the strategies I'd use to facilitate a healthy but robust debate. That is, I wonder (especially given the suggestion the lecturer muted the student) whether this case reflects more on skills of the lecturer in setting the tone.

Finally, as someone with GC views, I agree with the observations about the degree to which cancel culture has impacted on academics, and especially female academics. Much as I would like to have the bravery of a Kathleen Stock, I am simply too scared to 'come out' publicly with my views, as I know that I would lose invitations, be deplatformed from conferences, etc, even though my research has nothing to do with gender or trans rights.

Pronouns in bio complainy students is saying that they didn’t complain about transphobia but that she suggested the majority of women deserve to be raped because of how they dress

Only wouldn’t you know it she didn’t say that either, she said that women shouldn’t walk through dark parks on their own and men see opportunities to rape. Now I get why that could be seen as victim blaming but that’s a long way from the original claim that she said women deserve to be raped because of how they dress

"First, if a student(s) brings a formal complaint regarding the behaviour of another student in a class, we cannot just dismiss it out of hand - we have to investigate it."

On this point, I think the point made here in this thread is worth consideration. I understand the current climate is particularly difficult to navigate but ultimately a lot of these 'complaints' are absurd and what's missing is any robust leadership or firm rejection of absurd complaints, with some reasons for that suggested here.

It's not sustainable for organisations to operate in an atmosphere where the threat of complaints, no matter how absurd, looms larger than strong leadership & a refusal to be drawn into these petty/vindictive abuses of complaints procedures. Johnny Best's experience being on the receiving end of similar absurd complaints highlights several failures in this area too.

Thanks @TheShadowyFeminist, it was very interesting to read those tweets, which suggest that the news reports have misrepresented the focus of the complaint.

Despite what some are saying on Twitter (students should be free to present their opinions, even unpalatable ones), this particular case may not be straightforward. The complaint seems to be that the student's comments were distressing and antagonistic: that in a discussion in which some classmates had revealed themselves as survivors of sexual assault, the student made comments to the effect that women 'ask for it' by where they go, the clothes they wear etc.

Apparently, the class was recorded, so the investigators will have clear evidence of what was said, when, how etc.

The complaint seems to be that the student's comments were distressing and antagonistic:

Good luck to any of these people if they end up actually practicing law and having to go to court.

@TheShadowyFeminist

"First, if a student(s) brings a formal complaint regarding the behaviour of another student in a class, we cannot just dismiss it out of hand - we have to investigate it."

On this point, I think the point made here in this thread is worth consideration. I understand the current climate is particularly difficult to navigate but ultimately a lot of these 'complaints' are absurd and what's missing is any robust leadership or firm rejection of absurd complaints, with some reasons for that suggested here.

It's not sustainable for organisations to operate in an atmosphere where the threat of complaints, no matter how absurd, looms larger than strong leadership & a refusal to be drawn into these petty/vindictive abuses of complaints procedures. Johnny Best's experience being on the receiving end of similar absurd complaints highlights several failures in this area too.

I can only speak for my own department, but I have not seen evidence of vexatious complaint-making by students in relation to opinions expressed by other students in class. Indeed, I cannot think of a single complaint of this nature, or of similar concerns being expressed in student surveys or by student reps.

As more facts come out about this complaint, it is clear to me why the university needs to investigate it.

Some students have even suggested that rape law should not be taught because of its potential to cause "distress"

So at some point in the future we may ponder why successful rape convictions remain at an all-time low. We will wonder why there is a shortage of prosecution barristers with the ability to argue the case in court.

We all have in theory the potential to be bad. A fair number of mothers torture, abuse and even murder their children. A small number of female nursery workers have sexually abused children.
Hardly comparable. The child isn't worrying about whether it is safe to accept a drink from someone they've just met in case it may be spiked. The child doesn't walk home carrying keys in hand, just in case those footsteps behind quicken. Neither crime should be acceptable in modern society but the existence of one problem shouldn't push out talk about the other.

I hope this is held openly and we aren't just getting newspaper articles and twitter feeds. Is a university case deemed sub judice?

Rape and abuse is a highly contentious issue. No, men shouldn't all be considered rapists, nor should the rapists and dv men (and there are a few women in that category) be excused because of a woman's dress/state of sobriety. But I am torn about the advice you give your children of both sexes about keeping themselves safe. And how you help them defend themselves against appalling online abuse.

As for the gender issue - it would help if more people understood sex v gender. It seems so retrogade that there are families who don't understand that a boy liking pink and a girl blue and reverse preferences for gendered toys and sports doesn't mean they are different from their natal sex.

Where does Billy Elliot come into all this - a boy who loved ballet but was male. With a young friend who also loved the arts and fancied Billy and turns out to be gay. Neither seem to want to be women. Probably more difficult for young girls in a highly gendered family who think climbing trees, wanting to play football and wear jeans is wrong for Jessica.

@GCAcademic

The complaint seems to be that the student's comments were distressing and antagonistic:

Good luck to any of these people if they end up actually practicing law and having to go to court.

What's your approach, @GCAcademic - no holds barred? Are you saying that, when teaching, we need not do anything to consider the feelings of young, female students who have been raped or sexually assaulted? Or are there some lines you don't think should be crossed?

You can teach the law . That's what you are paid to do and what they are paid to lean

They have paid to learn

@TheShadowyFeminist

Not sure if it's been posted already but one of the students who complained has posted to try & justify the complaints made.

Link to tweets here

There's a recording of what happened & what was said, which so far hasn't been released (but I would predict someone will at some point).

Not sure this complainant really makes the case for the complaint. Vague reference to 'years of this' she understands so the usual implied character shredding with v little/no actual proof.

Those tweets are limited to approved viewers so don't shed much light.