Law Student Faces Disciplinary Action - Abertay Uni (Dundee)

[BuffysBigSister]

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9581035/Law-student-29-said-women-vaginas-faces-disciplinary-action-university.html

I am hoping someone will be able to tell me this is a made up story because if it's not I totally despair. How did we end up here??

I noticed too that Lisa Keogh, the student in this case, is hoping to become a human rights lawyer. I certainly hope she does - go Lisa!

@Ereshkigalangcleg

This is a related point, but I was really shocked when this article came out, but I then thought this coddling of feelings at university was more of an American thing. This article describes how some law students think they shouldn't have to learn about rape law, or even discuss it.

[[https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/trouble-teaching-rape-law]]

"Student organizations representing women’s interests now routinely advise students that they should not feel pressured to attend or participate in class sessions that focus on the law of sexual violence, and which might therefore be traumatic. These organizations also ask criminal-law teachers to warn their classes that the rape-law unit might “trigger” traumatic memories. Individual students often ask teachers not to include the law of rape on exams for fear that the material would cause them to perform less well. One teacher I know was recently asked by a student not to use the word “violate” in classas in “Does this conduct violate the law?”because the word was triggering. Some students have even suggested that rape law should not be taught because of its potential to cause distress"

Really interesting but also deeply depressing. HOW do such young people who need to be warned in advance of certain words being used actually FUNCTION in the real world where they have to earn a living??? It’s just extraordinary.

@Carriemac

Is there a fund raiser for this? Does she need support or is there anything we can do to help her?

I’d happily donate to a fundraiser

That is often said on here although tempered (supposedly) by the qualification that all men have the potential to be rapists. Personally that seems like splitting hairs.

All men having the potential to be rapists usually means that from women's viewpoint we don't know who is or isn't a rapist so we have to protect ourselves as if every man is, not saying that every man might actually rape. Although research showed that 32% of men said they'd force women to have sex if there were no consequences, which is pretty high www.thecut.com/2015/01/lots-of-men-dont-think-rape-is-rape.html

[quote TabbyStar] That is often said on here although tempered (supposedly) by the qualification that all men have the potential to be rapists. Personally that seems like splitting hairs.

All men having the potential to be rapists usually means that from women's viewpoint we don't know who is or isn't a rapist so we have to protect ourselves as if every man is, not saying that every man might actually rape. Although research showed that 32% of men said they'd force women to have sex if there were no consequences, which is pretty high www.thecut.com/2015/01/lots-of-men-dont-think-rape-is-rape.html[/quote]
We all have in theory the potential to be bad. A fair number of mothers torture, abuse and even murder their children. A small number of female nursery workers have sexually abused children.

@GCAcademic

It’s not just students. I’m aware of a situation where a member of academic staff is relentlessly pursuing a complaint against a student for articulating similar biological beliefs in a seminar. The manager who the complaint was made to is horrified and tried to get the academic to drop it, but they are insistent the student be investigated.

Horrendous. I am not surprised by this article in the slightest. This stuff is going on all over campuses. I am an academic (relatively junior) and I know I would face complaints and ostracisation if I said anything like this. I am growing more and more disillusioned every day. This has to stop. It’s a complete disgrace. I don’t even care how it stops anymore. A few years ago I’d have said that the government shouldn’t get involved in what academics can and can’t say but I actually support sanctions against academics and students who try to interfere with others’ speech now. It’s not ideal and there are a lot of dangers involved but we need to stamp it out. It should be as unacceptable as other forms of bullying (which is precisely what this is).

Lisa Keogh - if you read this let us know how we can support you.

Yes, stonecat. I think anyone making complaints of this nature, especially groups of people or staff ganging up against one person who is stating fact or even opinion, should be treated as if they were harassing that person. They most certainly should not be indulged.

Yes, if anyone knows any way to support Lisa, please post it here, I'm sure she will get lots of support.

The almost comical thing about this is that it was in a law seminar. If law students can't discuss ideas, then who can?

Haven't they been taught about the 'cab rank rule' yet. If they aspire to become barristers they could easily find themselves defending the rights of GC feminists. The university would be insane to try to discipline the student, it's the lecturer who muted her who should be investigated.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

This is a related point, but I was really shocked when this article came out, but I then thought this coddling of feelings at university was more of an American thing. This article describes how some law students think they shouldn't have to learn about rape law, or even discuss it.

[[https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/trouble-teaching-rape-law]]

"Student organizations representing women’s interests now routinely advise students that they should not feel pressured to attend or participate in class sessions that focus on the law of sexual violence, and which might therefore be traumatic. These organizations also ask criminal-law teachers to warn their classes that the rape-law unit might “trigger” traumatic memories. Individual students often ask teachers not to include the law of rape on exams for fear that the material would cause them to perform less well. One teacher I know was recently asked by a student not to use the word “violate” in classas in “Does this conduct violate the law?”because the word was triggering. Some students have even suggested that rape law should not be taught because of its potential to cause distress"

That's absolutely ludicrous. But I suppose it does pave the way for non-snowflake students to make a killing by being the go to experts in the field of sex crimes.

If people want to self sabotage their career, by deliberating limiting their knowledge, then I suppose it's up to them, Darwinly speaking.

The university have commented

twitter.com/abertayuni/status/1393480220607492096?s=21

Saying press reports are inaccurate and they can’t comment on investigations but they do encourage freedom of speech

[quote TabbyStar] That is often said on here although tempered (supposedly) by the qualification that all men have the potential to be rapists. Personally that seems like splitting hairs.

All men having the potential to be rapists usually means that from women's viewpoint we don't know who is or isn't a rapist so we have to protect ourselves as if every man is, not saying that every man might actually rape. Although research showed that 32% of men said they'd force women to have sex if there were no consequences, which is pretty high www.thecut.com/2015/01/lots-of-men-dont-think-rape-is-rape.html[/quote]
Exactly

Walking down a dark alley youve no idea if the man walking towards you is a rapist or not

Its not every man is a rapist or would rape

@Theeyeballsinthesky

The university have commented

twitter.com/abertayuni/status/1393480220607492096?s=21

Saying press reports are inaccurate and they can’t comment on investigations but they do encourage freedom of speech

Well that's interesting. Because they've got the eyes of the world on them now. Everyone is waiting to see how this will pan out.

There is no hiding any of it.

The university have commented

I read their tweeting as "We're hoping to do this student over behind closed doors with zero transparency and zero accountability."

I'd also like to support Lisa if we can find out how

Not seeing many tweets in support of Abertay's actions...

@Nonmaquillee

I would never usually click on a DM link but I did read this and yes, I despair too. How do med students get through a degree course??

I’m a second year medical student and, so far, everything has actually been completely normal in terms of language used (eg, this disease affects women, men are at higher risk for this....etc) with no one raising any objections. I also watch lectures by doctors from outside of my school and am involved in research with doctors and PhDs and see the same thing - on the “inside” the language has not changed. Later this year we’ll be studying Behavioural Health, I looked through one of the text books and saw in this section the diagnostic criteria for GD; preferences for playing with toys typically associated with the other gender, preferences for clothes typically associated with the other gender, amongst other items. This is where i’ll get myself in trouble in class, how can anyone pathologize a child’s innocent choices

My hometown university.

If anyone sets up a fighting fund (should she need one) I’ll gladly contribute.

I’m absolutely sick to the back teeth of this nonsense.