Public consultation on conversion therapy

[everythingthelighttouches]

The government have announced a new consultation before implementing a ban on conversion therapy that attempts to change someone’s sexual orientation or gender identity.

Does anyone know:
a) what is considered conversion therapy? Are there good and clear definitions? Would it include a safe space for professionals to apply a watch and wait approach, rather than no questions asked affirmation in children?

b) who is being consulted? If it is the public will a gender critical group provide us with a standard form we can all use?

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-57059459.amp

[quote yeahbutnaw]@Shedbuilder

That's the thing. Until a few decades ago, a majority believed that homosexuality would result in irreparable damage to an individual. That it was an unhealthy lifestyle choice. A perversion.

Of course that wasn't true. Someone being gay has no impact on anyone else's life.

The only reason you don't have the same viewpoint on trans people is because of your ideology.

Forcing anyone to "stop being gay" or to "stop being trans" is unacceptable. Your ideology is frankly irrelevant to the discussion.[/quote]
First of all, when you talk about 'being trans', what do you mean?

Do you mean someone with such intense hatred of their own body that they believe they can only find relief by having medical treatment to make their body look like that of the opposite sex?

Or do you mean a male who enjoys crossdressing?

Or do you mean a male who is aroused by the thought of himself as a woman?

Or do you mean a young lesbian who has been convinced by the homophobic people around her that because she is attracted to other women that means she is 'really a man'?

Or... I could go on. All of these people are under the 'trans umbrella'. In order to discuss your points I need to know which groups of people you are talking about. All of them? Some of them? Another group entirely?

Please visit the petitions board and sign the petition from therapists concerned about the gay conversion bill ending up banning open ended holistic therapy for gender confused children.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/Petitions_Noticeboard

"Safeguard Evidence Based Therapy"

Getting close to the 10,000 signatures where the government must respond

[quote yeahbutnaw]@Shedbuilder

That's the thing. Until a few decades ago, a majority believed that homosexuality would result in irreparable damage to an individual. That it was an unhealthy lifestyle choice. A perversion.

Of course that wasn't true. Someone being gay has no impact on anyone else's life.

The only reason you don't have the same viewpoint on trans people is because of your ideology.

Forcing anyone to "stop being gay" or to "stop being trans" is unacceptable. Your ideology is frankly irrelevant to the discussion.[/quote]
Anyone can be dress and sleep with who they want as long as it's consensual and legal. I'm a child of the 70s: I wore dungarees and had short hair and the boys had long hair and wore glitter and eyeliner. But no one born with a male-sexed body can ever be a woman. It's not an ideology, it's scientific fact.

Here's one for you. Would you regard the massive incursion into lesbian groups of male-sexed people who want to sleep with women as conversion therapy? Coercing and emotionally blackmailing a same-sex attracted woman into a straight relationship: conversion therapy, surely? Hateful, you might even say.

@OldCrone

Do you believe that a ban on conversion therapy means that medical professionals will need to forego all assessment and just hand medication and surgery out to anyone?

Because that's not at all what it means. It's never meant that.

Why do you believe it does? It sounds like you've having difficulty comprehending this issue. I can hopefully help if you let me know how you've come to believe this nonsense.

Here's one for you. Would you regard the massive incursion into lesbian groups of male-sexed people who want to sleep with women as conversion therapy? Coercing and emotionally blackmailing a same-sex attracted woman into a straight relationship: conversion therapy, surely? Hateful, you might even say.

What are you talking about? If you mean apps like HER, they're explicitly for all women (trans and cis). They say so on their site.

How would this be conversion therapy? Draw the connection for me. Because it sounds like some elaborate conspiracy on your part.

As an L person the only attempts at conversion therapy I've ever encountered have been from TW who wish me to change my homosexuality as they regard it as offensive. I've been encouraged to learn to 'cope' with unwanted sex I won't enjoy in order to meet a male born person's needs, and encouraged to believe that if I just try hard enough I can 'get over' my 'odd' and wrong/immoral fixation on wanting to exclusively have sex with female people.

This is Not Ok. This is really, seriously, NOT ok.

No, I didn't mean apps? All women doesn't include people with male-sexed bodies, by the way. You're not debating in good faith, are you? Nor did you answer my question.

Telling people they're selling an ideology or an elaborate conspiracy when they're merely being rational is a new one on me.

@fishareboring

As an L person the only attempts at conversion therapy I've ever encountered have been from TW who wish me to change my homosexuality as they regard it as offensive. I've been encouraged to learn to 'cope' with unwanted sex I won't enjoy in order to meet a male born person's needs, and encouraged to believe that if I just try hard enough I can 'get over' my 'odd' and wrong/immoral fixation on wanting to exclusively have sex with female people.

This is Not Ok. This is really, seriously, NOT ok.

Whataboutery in action.

Let's assume that what you've said is entirely true.

Why would that mean we shouldn't ban Conversion Therapy? Does it mean that it's perfectly acceptable to force gay people to change their sexuality? Or to force trans people to stop being trans?

Oh right. It doesn't.

@fishareboring

As an L person the only attempts at conversion therapy I've ever encountered have been from TW who wish me to change my homosexuality as they regard it as offensive. I've been encouraged to learn to 'cope' with unwanted sex I won't enjoy in order to meet a male born person's needs, and encouraged to believe that if I just try hard enough I can 'get over' my 'odd' and wrong/immoral fixation on wanting to exclusively have sex with female people.

This is Not Ok. This is really, seriously, NOT ok.

This is what I meant. What could be more conversion-orientated than men with penises trying to persuade lesbians that they should have sex with them?

Whataboutery in action.

You what?

Well I obviously can't then assume anything you have to say is true either, so not much point carrying on a conversation. Toodle pip.

Let's assume that what you've said is entirely true.

Fucking hell, I'm straight and I've seen that happen to lesbians. Its flat out abuse.

Conversion therapy for gay people means trying to change something about them

Conversion therapy for trans people means trying to stop them changing anything

Gay people want to be accepted as they are

And whilst Some trans people want to be accepted as they are , as trans, a lot want to be accepted as the sex opposite thier actual sex

And whilst Some trans people want to be accepted as they are , as trans, a lot want to be accepted as the sex opposite thier actual sex

And where does the opposite sex get to have say in this? I'd love to be a 5'10" tall raven-haired beauty, or a brilliant dancer, or a natural linguist — but I'm not and I don't expect the rest of the world to pretend I am to pander to my feelings.

Well yes but I was trying ( failing) to point out that trans and homosexual acceptance / conversion are more opposite to each other than similar to each other

One wants to be accepted as they are , whilst another often wants significant physical intervention

If telling non gender conforming gay people that they should transition isn't conversion then what is?

[quote yeahbutnaw]@OldCrone

Do you believe that a ban on conversion therapy means that medical professionals will need to forego all assessment and just hand medication and surgery out to anyone?

Because that's not at all what it means. It's never meant that.

Why do you believe it does? It sounds like you've having difficulty comprehending this issue. I can hopefully help if you let me know how you've come to believe this nonsense.[/quote]
Did you mean to @ someone else there? Because you haven't answered any of my questions and made some assumptions about me which have nothing to do with my post.

You seem to be struggling with comprehending this issue yourself.

From the article linked in the OP:
The practice can take many forms, some of which - like "corrective" rape - are already illegal.

This sounds very much like males who identify as women trying to coerce lesbians into sex with their 'female penises'. Do you have anything to say about that?

And can you tell me which sort of trans people you're talking about when you refer to 'trans people' (I listed some of them in my last post)? Is it all of them?

If anyone wanted an example of the kind of disingenuity and gaslighting we could expect from trans activists the moment a law got on the books relating to conversion therapy for gender identity, look no further than the posts on this thread by yeahbutnaw.

Will this have anything to do with trans-rights? Or is it basically just a ban on "change sexuality preferences" therapy?

It's going to consultation because the govt are aware that this is a whole lot more complicated than it looks, and if waved through on the grounds of thinking of what has always been meant by conversion therapy, the religious or medical attempt to 'correct' homosexual people to heterosexuality, then there is potential for unintentional side effects that aren't necessarily positive ones.

It's important to pin down exactly what is being meant by conversion therapy in these terms. Electrodes on people's penises while showing them pictures to 'condition' responses, is not the same thing as a counsellor or social worker talking with a distraught young girl about whether her desire for life altering medication and surgery may have to do with the sexual assault she has suffered, or whether there are other less drastic ways to support her that might be tried first. The question is are there political achievements attached to seeing the two things as one and the same that need to be thoroughly questioned first.

There are also questions around things mentioned on thread: the high number of girls transitioning and from the stories of detransitioners, whether they would with more positive support and help around body image decide that they identified more with being lesbian gender non conforming women rather than men. And also that in some circles of gender ideology, homosexuality is something seen as unacceptable with homosexual women being strongly encouraged to 'learn to cope' and overcome their homosexuality. There are arguably elements of conversion therapy mixed up in this that may need addressing.

Essentially a lot of evidence, discussion and impartial taking of the situation apart is needed to consider all parties, all needs, and whether the T and LGB needs and situation in this is in fact one and the same. It's a great deal more complicated than it looks.

I'm going to rephrase some of that: my apologies, it is difficult to express this coherently in terms in sufficient care for the feelings of all concerned and in keeping with the guidelines.

There are also questions around things mentioned on thread: the high number of girls transitioning and from the stories of detransitioners, whether some would with more positive support and help around body image decide that they identified more with being lesbian gender non conforming women rather than men. With this being important to consider, because it is important to recognise if being a female and a lesbian is becoming a socially uncomfortable and unsafe identity for girls, and if so, to address this. Being gay and being gender non conforming should be a positive, safe thing to choose if this is the right choice for a person.

And also that in some circles of gender ideology, homosexuality is something seen as unacceptable with homosexual women in particular being strongly encouraged to 'learn to cope' and overcome their sexual attraction to biological females and be 'inclusive' of biologically male people who identify as women, because of the idea that a person's identity is more important than their sex. As homosexuality requires recognition of biological sex and acceptance of this being sexually excluding based on sex, and people's right to have a sex based sexual orientation, this is a serious issue to consider.

It would be great if someone could explain how this law will work in practice, when the fact is social norms and varying levels of pressure within the home force everyone from birth to get into a tiny gender box. With women's being more restrictive than men's, but men's being restrictive as well?

Many families make their daughters wear pretty frocks and won't let them explore interests that are not usual for girls. Meanwhile boys are given no option but to support a certain team in football, get the message that boys don't cry etc etc

Many many people rail against their prescribed role. It results in trying to get along in a society/ family/ school where you feel out of place, not understood, treated as something you are not etc etc.

That's a big problem with this.

I would like to see some decent research and stats. I linked a BBC article earlier which showed massive room for interpretation in what was asked.

It did seem to show that religion was a big factor- which is why I think the consultation is happening. Plenty of religious groups in the UK (and around the world) see homosexuality as a sin and would view being gender non conforming in a similar light, especially a boy who wanted to wear dresses etc.

I am also reminded of the quote by Juno Dawson 'A lot of gay men are gay men as a consolation prize, because they couldn't be women'. Out and out homophobia. An idea that transitioning is a 'better' way to live your life if you are same sex attracted? There is an undertone there for sure.

Lesbian isn't an identity though. It may form part of a person's identity iyswim but the word itself just means homosexual female human.

I mean saying
I identify as a lesbian
I am a lesbian
Don't really mean the same thing.

Identify as is useful around disability, ethnicity, nationality. That sort of thing. I can go into why if anyone is interested!

The only place I have seen it used with sexuality was when I worked in HIV data in the 90s. We would refer in info things etc to 'men who have sex with men'. As there are plenty of men who have sex with men but identify as straight.

So there's something around it being useful when it's not always straightforward (disability/ ethnicity) or is something that some people don't want to see as part of who they are (disability/ sexuality) or is based in personality (my left wing politics is a big part of my identity).

This language has been screwed up though by the last few years framing it as, anyone can identify however they like (with a few exceptions which there is no logic for excluding but there you go).

So now if a question says do you identify as disabled well anyone can tick yes. Which they could before. But generally people wouldn't as they knew it meant actually having a disability that limited them iyswim.

Sorry long.

In the end the theft of arguments from so many other movements, the reversal of them, and throwing them back at the ones who came up with them. Is just really really shitty.

Am I remembering right that conversion therapy is banned in Canada? And there was a story a couple of years ago about someone getting struck off for doing counselling with kids with gender dysphoria

For me I would prefer to see:

Proper study. Prevalence. What situations. When. Who.

It seems to be mostly religious based, which isn't a surprise. Will people in those groups report? Realistically?

In groups where there is homophobia you can bet they have pretty retrograde views about women. And other stuff. Will legislating against this help anyone in practice? And what of the others who may be bound into massively restrictive circs?

Also when it comes to more closed religious groups- I live in s part of London where we have some. No one seems to get involved. Problems in schools. Being schooled outside the system. Loads of stuff. Anything could be going on. Nothing gets done.

Is this law going to change anything at all?

Then there's definitions. What constitutes conversion therapy? When it comes to transgender people, and GNC people, and loads of people generally. Isn't society just one massive oppressive gender role machine? What are the boundaries around this? I'm agender (if I had to choose one). Spent my whole life hating being pushed into being what a girl is supposed to be.

Can I report my mum for spending years making me wear uncomfy dresses and making me do ballet even though I hated it and she knew?

The whole thing seems ill thought out tbh.

Call the Midwife in Sunday felt like a bit of a lecture timed very serendipitously.

Is there much conversion treatment (of gays) going on these days? The sudden enthusiasm for banning it seems suspicious at least.