Page 6 | Public consultation on conversion therapy

everythingthelighttouches · 2021-05-11T08:44:09+00:00

The government have announced a new consultation before implementing a ban on conversion therapy that attempts to change someone’s sexual orientation or gender identity. Does anyone know: a) what is considered conversion therapy? Are there good and clear definitions? Would it include a safe space for professionals to apply a watch and wait approach, rather than no questions asked affirmation in children? b) who is being consulted? If it is the public will a gender critical group provide us with a standard form we can all use? [[https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-57059459.amp]]

NiceGerbil · 30/10/2021 21:47

I REALLY think there needs to be a decent thorough study on

Prevalence
Which groups
Etc

The study I linked earlier they keep saying. UK not known this is all studies from USA so should be read with caution etc.

We are NOT USA.

The communities it goes on in I can think of at least 2 nearby. Closed extreme sects.

That are left VERY MUCH ALONE despite knowing issues.

And that wouldn't be conversion. It would be impossible to even think of considering any way at all about anything other than heterosexuality. And you have to marry in same group etc anyway.

They need to find out WHERE the problems are here and the specifics and then tackle them.

NO ONE from those communities is going to the police FFS.

Give us the data fgs. Otherwise this is a gesture and nothing more. With something very different tacked on for... Reasons.

MargaritaPie · 31/10/2021 00:10

@thirdfiddle

Tell you what would be funny. If they tried to smuggle in a ban on being gender critical in the presence of others in by talking about gay conversion therapy in the 60s and trying to make sure people didn't look too hard at the wording... and accidentally banned Stonewall in the process: trying to coerce lesbians into considering sleeping with penis people on threat of excommunication, it's pretty clear cut isn't it.

Come again?

Imnobody4 · 04/11/2021 10:58

Sex Matters have produced an analysis/critique of the research report by Coventry University for this consultation.

^This paper reviews the evidence presented in the Coventry University research
commissioned by the Government Equality Office (GEO) to make the case for banning “gender identity conversion therapy”.^
The Coventry study sets out to show that “conversion therapy” in relation to gender identity is similar to religiously motivated attempts to “pray the gay away” or to pseudoscientific therapies.
1. No robust evidence is presented for this. The entirety of the evidence presented consists of four articles based on three datasets, and limited highlights from six one-hour interviews with individuals. The studies are weak, and the report relies heavily on a single question in a self-selected survey run by a US transgender advocacy organisation

sex-matters.org/posts/publications/rapid-review-of-coventry-university-research-on-conversion-therapy/

6. It is concerning that the Government Equalities Office would commission such a biased piece of work, and then hold it from publication for four months before releasing it just in time for a rushed six-week consultation

FindTheTruth · 08/11/2021 12:14

TWEET
@TheFamousArtBR

Banning “conversion therapy” for “Gender Identity” (a spiritual belief with no basis in reality or science) legitimises actual conversion therapy against homosexuality (same sex attraction) because Gender Identity ideology discounts biological sex.
More people need to see this.

BloodinGutters · 11/11/2021 14:23

I had emailed them the question about why there was no option of choosing no gender identity.

‘The voluntary questions in the consultation about the demographics of the respondents are in line with the Office for National Statistics harmonised standards on on collecting and reporting statistics. These questions will be helpful in building a greater understanding about people or groups who may be more vulnerable to conversion therapy and enhancing our understanding of the experiences and views of people or groups on conversation therapy and the policy proposals.’

Now I’m sick in bed with flu/killer cold/lurgy so maybe I’m not thinking clearly, but what the actual fuck does that mean? It doesn’t answer the question at all.

Imnobody4 · 11/11/2021 20:54

Just had the same reply. Feeling really pissed off after the euphoria of the BBC.
They say 'voluntary question' - it isn't voluntary, thats the bloody point.
The ONS were told not to conflate sex and gender in the census. Are these people thick or what.

Imnobody4 · 11/11/2021 21:28

As you were. I've just been into the consultation and it's been changed!
Now the question about sex is required and an optional one on gender identity follows later.

Does this mean the consultation team have been over ruled and can't bring themselves to apologise for getting it wrong? Anyway it's good news.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 11/11/2021 21:41

Well done everyone who complained.
I suppose it's an example of how captured civil servants are - presumably they've had to be overruled by the adults in the room.

FindTheTruth · 12/11/2021 11:08

Helen Joyce's point is relevant to this bill (in Lib Dems meeting): "the point is there's children being sterilised and they're being sterilised by people who think that they're doing the right thing whereas i think if those people hadn't been given the misimpression that i'm a massive bigot and they might have heard me and that might have already stopped"

If this bill becomes law it will get worse - it will criminalise speaking up about the sterilisation of children. Adults will teach children they have a gender identity. Children believe the adults. Some children will believe they have a gender identity and want to transition. Parents or therapists questioning it will be CRIMINALISED.

FindTheTruth · 12/11/2021 11:29

The study of 50 highly gender non-conforming little boys who all said I want to be a girl in childhood. IF this bill becomes law, such children could be medicalised and parents, therapists criminalised for questioning 'I want to be a girl' or 'I want to be a boy'. The evidence is clear here

^"some of those boys grow up into charming heterosexual slightly
fame men but loads of them grow up gay so he found and later studies found that the chances of being gay if you're that highly gender non-conforming little boy much much higher maybe two dozen times higher than it would be if you just randomly picked a boy out of the population
and so they followed these boys and all of them said i was meant to be a girl i wish i was a girl they you know they dressed up in girls clothes and said look mummy you've got a daughter etc etc
all of them except one stopped doing this during puberty and he then he gives statistics for how many of them ended up gay which was more
than half gay or bisexual or and thought about gay sex more than straight sex seriously the other ones were all gay too you can see it when you read it like i'd say that of the the 50 he managed to follow up with you know like maybe five weren't gay and one one still said at 19 or 20. i was meant to be a woman i wish i was a woman i'd be better if i was a woman so this was really this is the first but there were another
dozen studies and these studies really show as conclusively as anything in this field like far more conclusively than most stuff the children who think they remember they're meant to be members of the opposite sex are actually just you know quite likely to be gay and anyway they'll grow out of it either way in puberty or before puberty"^

FindTheTruth · 13/11/2021 11:33

Gender Dysphoria Alliance on 'conversion therapy':

"lesbian and gay people who transition to escape homophobia.......Sometimes this is deliberate and other times subconscious. This is one of the reasons that people later regret transitioning. We can’t stress enough that for many, medically transitioning is literally an extreme form of LGB conversion therapy. This is something that should be explored with each person seeking to medically transition."

Bellendejour · 13/11/2021 14:15

Hello all I think there are two threads on this. I’ve filled a response to this consultation as an individual here:

equalityhub.citizenspace.com/government-equalities-office/banning-conversion-therapy/

I’ve used it to raise concerns about a ban on conversion therapy resulting in any divergence from the affirmative care model, any open discussion around sexuality/identity or any discussion around comorbidities/other issues (eg mental health issues, eating disorders, autism, body dysmorphia or ‘growing pains) being considered ‘conversion therapy’.

Have included lots of links to the problems with affirmative care and to the experiences of detransitioning young people who were harmed and their lives and bodies permanently damaged by affirmative care.

LilithRises · 13/11/2021 20:26

Thank you Mumsnet posters for info on this subject. I've submitted feedback to the consultation. Could it be that Stonewall themselves are involved in conversion therapy. I am lesbian - and their redefined concept of homosexuality as same gender attraction rather than same sex attraction - could infer a pressure to accept a biological male as a partner. Is that not an attempt at conversion? What do others think?

Leafstamp · 13/11/2021 20:28

@LilithRises

Thank you Mumsnet posters for info on this subject. I've submitted feedback to the consultation. Could it be that Stonewall themselves are involved in conversion therapy. I am lesbian - and their redefined concept of homosexuality as same gender attraction rather than same sex attraction - could infer a pressure to accept a biological male as a partner. Is that not an attempt at conversion? What do others think?

I’m no expert on either conversion therapy or being LGB, but I absolutely think it sounds like conversion therapy to suggest to a lesbian that they should sleep with a male.

I’m now thinking I don’t need to be an expert on those things to make that statement!

Fallingirl · 14/11/2021 01:26

Putting the link to Transgender Trend’s guide here as well. We have two threads running on this, and useful links could get lost.

www.transgendertrend.com/guide-government-conversion-therapy-consultation/#respond

PatsArrow · 14/11/2021 03:22

@LilithRises

Thank you Mumsnet posters for info on this subject. I've submitted feedback to the consultation. Could it be that Stonewall themselves are involved in conversion therapy. I am lesbian - and their redefined concept of homosexuality as same gender attraction rather than same sex attraction - could infer a pressure to accept a biological male as a partner. Is that not an attempt at conversion? What do others think?

Yes. That's exactly it.

Welcome to the upside down, where Stonewall and other groups are using the emotive term 'conversion therapy' (which is really extremely rare in the U.K. these days) to push exactly that. They want the term 'gender identity' on the statute books so that lesbians can be coerced into having sex with men with penises because they say they are women/lesbians.

It's the ultimate old "what you need is a good shag with me and I'll turn you" comment.

Also the gender non-confirming children who statistically will mostly grow up to be gay, will only be able to receive 'affirmation only' treatment. Which means they will be told the only way to alleviate their questioning or distress will be medical transition.

That really IS conversion therapy.

WarriorN · 14/11/2021 08:34

I haven't been through the questions yet but it might be worth including somewhere that some people believe (as a result of various "science" news articles and media coverage) that trans is a type of intersex condition. Therefore to not receive the "appropriate medication" (to transition) is medical negligence. This drives beliefs that to not affirm trans identity is conversion therapy.

It needs to be made explicit that this is a growing misconception in the public consciousness. (See last week on radio 4 today.)

This misconception is in effect conversion therapy.

HatefulHaberdashery · 14/11/2021 09:21

Anything but unquestioning affirmation of an unverifiable, malleable and subjective gender identity, will be seen as conversion therapy.

It's no debate all over again, but this time, the focus is children.
If you're a parent who tries to curtail your child's use of social media, because maybe you think Tumbler/social media is teaching your kid a whole of nonsense about being transgender, that could be viewed as a "controlling or coercive measure" akin to abusive behaviour in a conversion therapy context. You could be criminalised as a parent.
The proposals would also enable local authorities, the police, charities, teachers or family members to apply for a “Conversion Therapy Protection Order” to prevent parents travelling abroad with their children. Stonewall would be able to apply to remove a child’s passport.

I'm shocked and appalled at this unbelievably divisive consultation, based on a flawed and biased ideological study, that sets parents up as the enemy, and conflates gender identity with sexual orientation, clearly defined in UK Equalities Law.

It also raises the prospect of Self ID for children, as any attempts to examine or explore the root cause of a child's gender dysphoria, or make them more comfortable with their sexed body will no doubt be seen as seeking to "suppress a child's gender id". Schools that reject boys attempting to use a girl's toilet will be cowered into submission, for fear of being accused of "conversion therapy".

The Government should be working to slow the transition train way down, instead of putting measures into place to uncrtitically fast track measures that will chemically and surgically transforming children's bodies into something that would never result in them being the opposite sex

What you can do

Give your feedback by 10 December 2021, via email: [email protected] or visit: www.gov.uk/government/consultations/banning-conversion-therapy
Encourage your MP to await the outcome of the Cass Review of gender identity services for children and young people, and tell the government to withdraw this flawed consultation and/or #PressPause on their proposals with regards to gender identity (a malleable, subjective and unverifiable concept).
Remind all around you of the rights of minors to be protected from inadequate therapeutic services and experimental medical treatment (puberty blockers/ cross-sex hormones/ surgical transition).
Visit: sex-matters.org/ and safeschoolsallianceuk.org
Follow: @ThoughtfulTs & @Transgendertrd on Twitter for guidance and information on the implications of these Conversion Therapy Proposals
Search #PressPause on Twitter

FindTheTruth · 14/11/2021 14:13

Generation Z - Students Euan Clayton and Phoebe Fuller on the rise in homophobia towards young lesbian and gay people.

'i think the statistics back up that Gen Z is less tolerant than millennial'

'i think asking someone to unlearn and examine their sexuality is pretty much conversion therapy rhetoric'

'homophobia is coming from different areas for example the genital preference rhetoric itself is homophobia the vast majority of it is targeted at gay people because they're seen as easy target'

'there's a real lack of respect for sexual boundaries in this discord the conversation should really end at someone saying sorry i'm not interested and i think there's a lot of power behind the words transphobic or bigot that put a lot of pressure on people and that can be lead to almost being coercive'

'this is an issue that's particularly affecting lesbians there was a book recently that came out aimed at children called i'm not a girl and essentially what the book was saying was that this girl wanted to have short hair and so she's therefore no longer a girl now this is um incredibly antiquated gender stereotypes and so i think it's time it's a high time that we support gender non conforming people a large proportion of whom are gay'

'i do worry that by drawing gender distinctions in this extremely binary way that we're essentially pathologizing gender non-conformity'

'i think we also need to pay attention to the fact that some people feel very suffocated by the modern lgbt discourse and the moral standard that it gets people to'

'now homophobia has got a new progressive face and it's coming from extreme gender identity ideology and i find it extremely worrisome'

FindTheTruth · 14/11/2021 14:33

A 14 year old girl taken away from parents

'a family was broken up um based on the parents not believing i think in
gender identity theory'

'a young girl on the spectrum they had moved home she had been having difficulty with certainly into the new place'

'this young girl um it seems that she got involved in an internet social group and they basically sold her the idea that really her the solution to her problems was to eat that she was a boy it i don't know but it appears that she was coached a bit to say that if if she wasn't allowed to become a boy which was basically double mastectomies etc um that should commit suicide so one day the parents what they found at the door is policemen who took away the girl 14 years old'

Time stamp 43:18

my thoughts In the UK children are going through gender identity conversion therapy in online groups and IF this so-called conversion therapy ban becomes law, it will threaten criminal action against parents or therapists or anyone who challenges it. Kids are being subjected to conversion therapy and this bill will criminalise the current means of escaping it.

HatefulHaberdashery · 14/11/2021 19:51

[quote FindTheTruth]Generation Z - Students Euan Clayton and Phoebe Fuller on the rise in homophobia towards young lesbian and gay people.