Can you be a true feminist if you...?

[Dontknowowt]

Basically marry a rich partner
so you can give up work?

My mum was raised solely by her dad in 70'a (basically because her mum had a affair and literally buggered off one day). He was remarkable - working at least 2 jobs at a time whenever he could to put food on the table for his five kids. It was a very unusual situation back then.

My mum raised me to work hard so I could get a career and be self-sufficient as she saw how important that was for her dad and ultimately their family e.g. you don't know what's around the corner in any marriage.

Do you think a lot of people just go through their lives ultimately planning to rely on someone else financially?

It just doesn't sit easy with me.

Lemon was responding (quoted in fact) to a point someone made re their male partner. And meant a better mother than any man, unless I'm very much mistaken.

The home economy should be valued alongside the paid economy. Some families chose for one parent to stay home, some chose to outsource some of the home economy tasks and split the remainder around work. Both totally valid life choices.
I don't think it's feminist to target marrying a rich man. But I don't know anyone who did that tbh. I have friends who happened to fall in love with rich men, some gave up work to look after children, some didn't. They are respected by their spouses either way. I don't think a feminist should have a view on either life choice as more valid.

@LimpLettice

Lemon was responding (quoted in fact) to a point someone made re their male partner. And meant a better mother than any man, unless I'm very much mistaken.

Here is exactly what Lemon said

07:06LemonRoses

Dontknowowt

*@Checkingout811It doesn't make me a better/more important parent than my child's father simply because I gave birth to her!

It doesn’t make you a better parent. It makes you a mother and definitely a better mother. Mothering is a very important role for society and for women
Good mothering has a huge impact on the next generation

Your interpretation is not what she said.

What is a "better mother"? The reference to a "better mother than a man" is nonsensical. A man is not a mother.

[quote Dontknowowt]@HecatesCatsInFancyHats For me it's not using "feminism" just because it may suit me better to do so. And it's treating everyone - regardless of gender - with the same respect.[/quote]
Feminism is treating everyone exactly the same? Would you say you're a liberal/intersectional feminist, a gender critical feminist, a radical feminist? How do you think of yourself and what ends would you like to achieve?

I wouldn’t say I was a feminist but here’s our situation and I suppose you can judge it from there

I used to be the main earner in our marriage by quite a considerable amount, I got made redundant during the recession in 2008 and took a lower paid job so my husband and I the were near enough on identical salaries.

Fast forward a few years my husband set up a limited company doing his chosen career path and now earns an incredible amount of money, it worked out more tax efficient for me to give up my full time job and become an employee through our own business, I now earn more than my last job but only work a few hours a month, this really was a decision based on tax rather than being a stay at home woman! We don’t have children but this arrangement works for us, definitely our business and now my parents are aging and need more assistance it’s helping with the family aspect too

Pedantic or consciously finding interpretations that are misleading?

• It makes you a mother and definitely a better mother. Mothering is a very important role for society and for women Good mothering has a huge impact on the next generation

Your interpretation is not what she said.

What is a "better mother"? The reference to a "better mother than a man" is nonsensical. A man is not a mother.*

Better mother means a mother that is better than a man can be - and, except for the hard of thinking, that is indeed very obvious, but quite important, no? Mothering as the ultimate feminine role cannot be taken over by men; It is unique to women, but is often devalued. Unless mothering is seen as being of similar importance to drawing a high salary, then women are unlikely to ever have equality. All the while some women spout that 'living of a man' is not a valid option for women who support equality, then mothering and therefore womanhood are being undermined by other women.

And yes, there are definitely better mothers and less good mothers but that is not the point being discussed.

I'm still waiting for an explanation of what these unique "mothering" qualities are which are so different from "fathering" qualities or "parenting" qualities.

But I suppose as I'm "hard of thinking" (as opposed to your unclear and ambiguous posting) these unique mothering qualities passed me by too.

Personally it all sounds as "woo" as anything trans activists come up. I certainly don't want to be set up on some sort of motherhood pedestal.

I can't help but think some women want equality but only when it suits them?

Everyone wants women to have equality when it suits them. Men and women.

I’m still waiting for an explanation of why people don’t think a fathers role is different to a mother’s

I can't help but think some women want equality but only when it suits them?

People (quite rightly) want equality of opportunity. Equality doesn't tell you what to do, it allows you to make choices. Otherwise it becomes just another box to put you in or another stick to beat you with.

@MissBarbary

I'm still waiting for an explanation of what these unique "mothering" qualities are which are so different from "fathering" qualities or "parenting" qualities.

But I suppose as I'm "hard of thinking" (as opposed to your unclear and ambiguous posting) these unique mothering qualities passed me by too.

Personally it all sounds as "woo" as anything trans activists come up. I certainly don't want to be set up on some sort of motherhood pedestal.

I think if you look, you'll find plenty of evidence that mothers relate very differently to their children compared to fathers. That feels very obvious. Children ideally need both. Not 'woo' at all, but probably unpopular where a mother doesn't want to believe her wishes and behaviours don't impact on her children.

If you want a starter for ten - look at the short and long term physical and psychological advantaged breast feeding confers.

Then the undoubted advantages of early bonding: Bonding with a new baby is natural for most mothers. Left alone, new mothers will hold their baby next to their bodies, rock them gently, strive for eye contact, sing or talk to the baby and begin to nurse. Often within just hours of birth, mothers report feelings of overwhelming love and attachment for their new baby. Fathers can learn this but it isn't instinctive - which is unsurprising given the different hormonal influences on each sex. That early attachment is vital to healthy development and poor attachment to parents is linked to delinquency in boys and girls. Stronger effect sizes were found for attachment to mothers than attachment to fathers.

The mother's educational attainment has a very significant impact on the health and achievement of their children - in a way that the father's doesn't.

Maternal (not paternal) negative attitude towards an infant at 6 months is an independent predictor of child behaviour problems at 5 years (for both daughters and sons).

So yes, mothering is very important for the healthy development of the next generation and no, it can't be fully replicated by fathers.

Often within just hours of birth, mothers report feelings of overwhelming love and attachment for their new baby. Fathers can learn this but it isn't instinctive

It's not instinctive for fathers to love their babies?

@Checkingout811

I’m still waiting for an explanation of why people don’t think a fathers role is different to a mother’s

I don't think it's different. Other than giving birth and breastfeeding I don't think there is anything which a mother does which a father can't and vice versa.

It's up to the posters claiming there is a difference to say what it is.

What's "mothering" ? I don't know and I'm a mother. It's all a bit "feels like a woman"

I disagree. I know for sure my partner has feelings of overwhelming love and attachment for his new baby.
At times I would argue these feelings were in fact stronger than mine.
He is just as important a parent to our daughter as I am - no more and no less.

Just for the flip opinion my husband' loved' out baby first. It wasn't instantaneous for either of us and I think the myth of instant overwhelmingly love did contribute to my post natal depression.

Then again I had a heavily drugged induction so we don't know how the blocking of my own oxytocin contributed to that either.

It's definitely a different love for both of us, but that could easily be put down to other factors like personality, my PTSD about the birth.

I can also comment from a legal pov in that the family courts also see a mother and father's role as equally important in the life of a child.

Not 'woo' at all, but probably unpopular where a mother doesn't want to believe her wishes and behaviours don't impact on her children

Yes I'm sure you'll have no hesitation pointing this out them. As for breastfeeding it's a pity Babdoc, an actual doctor isn't on this thread.

I'm an avid breastfeeder, having breastfed my first two until they both turned three, and still breastfeeding my one year-old.
I still work and I still believe my daughter's father is as equally important in his role of dad as I am in my role of mum.

@Dontknowowt

I'm an avid breastfeeder, having breastfed my first two until they both turned three, and still breastfeeding my one year-old. I still work and I still believe my daughter's father is as equally important in his role of dad as I am in my role of mum.

That's quite the commitment alongside your job OP! How do you manage the juggle? Do you get any sleep?

@MissBarbary

Not 'woo' at all, but probably unpopular where a mother doesn't want to believe her wishes and behaviours don't impact on her children

Yes I'm sure you'll have no hesitation pointing this out them. As for breastfeeding it's a pity Babdoc, an actual doctor isn't on this thread.

You seem very angry about breastfeeding and the idea that mothering is something men cannot replicate. I’d think it blindingly obvious that mothers and fathers brought different things to a parenting role. You’d concede that hormones play a role in reactions, behaviours, relationships, no? You’d know male and female hormones are different, yes?

What’s being an ‘actual doctor’ (as opposed to a doctor) got to do with breastfeeding? How have you assessed their qualifications? My daughter is a doctor. She’s not much idea about breastfeeding because it’s not something that’s studied much in medical school or subsequently. My boss is an obstetrician; lovely chap, but not a clue about breastfeeding.

@HecatesCatsInFancyHats Not much to be fair as we are also bedsharers and I feed on demand throughout the night!! My little girl wakes up I would say on average every 2/3 hours for a feed.
I sometimes think I should take a couple of matchsticks into work for when my eyelids start to close

You’d concede that hormones play a role in reactions, behaviours, relationships, no? You’d know male and female hormones are different, yes?

What are you on about? I thought FWR detested the idea that women's reactions "hormonal"

I'm sure you have your own reasons for elevating "mothering" but I remain wholly unconvinced by almost everything you have posted.

I thought FWR detested the idea that women's reactions "hormonal

FWR is full of different posters thinking different things

What's FWR?

Feminism chat

Used to be feminism and women’s rights