Can you be a true feminist if you...?

[Dontknowowt]

Basically marry a rich partner
so you can give up work?

My mum was raised solely by her dad in 70'a (basically because her mum had a affair and literally buggered off one day). He was remarkable - working at least 2 jobs at a time whenever he could to put food on the table for his five kids. It was a very unusual situation back then.

My mum raised me to work hard so I could get a career and be self-sufficient as she saw how important that was for her dad and ultimately their family e.g. you don't know what's around the corner in any marriage.

Do you think a lot of people just go through their lives ultimately planning to rely on someone else financially?

It just doesn't sit easy with me.

[quote Dontknowowt]@stirrednotshaken80 So for the many women who don't have the choice, does that make them less of a feminist?[/quote]
No. It makes them one of the victims of inequality.

I think setting out to marry just for the lifestyle someone can give you seems a little callous towards the other person. On the other hand, maybe if the woman offers something the rich husband values, it's a fair exchange.

I don't know that feminism really comes into it.

I think of couples as an economic unit, and I don't think it makes any difference, except practically for themselves, how they choose to divide paid work and whatever else they want to do in life. If someone chooses not to work, they should probably take some steps to make sure they can manage in a way they are happy with if something bad happens, what that looks like is also up to them.

I don't put any intrinsic value on paid employment.

Raising children is a valid and important thing to do. If it works for a family for one parent to stay at home I wouldn't judge that as a feminist.

I would however encourage women to consider their financial security and work prospects should their relationship fail.

@stirrednotshaken80 That's a somewhat middle-class view. I have a career and work ft, my partner also works ft, but if one of us gave up work we simply wouldn't be able to pay the bills (unless on benefits).

I'm really, really confused about what your point is op?

@Dontknowowt I really don’t see how I’ve expressed a “middle class” view. I have merely pointed out that feminist values have nothing to do with whether a woman works or not. We all make choices in life and have to accept the subsequent results of those choices.

@GoingThruTheMotions I’d second this. It appears OP would like other women to slate SAHM for some reason?

This reminds me of when my fil made a smug "spending my money" comment about mil. It was completely bitchy and unfair because she's sooo not one to spend anything without need.
He forgot his audience. I told him with all the unpaid labour she did in childcare she earned a portion of the household money. I also reminded him that as he retired early and she still does all the housework if anything he owes her.

She raised DH who is an absolute diamond so he definitely got his 'money worth'.

Op is very much presenting it like we live in a society where people don't have to make different choices that work best for them financially. My parents both worked out of necessity, not a feminist choice at all. I worked until maternity with D's and may or may not go back. Financially it's about the same and as I work with children I don't see how much difference it makes to feminism whether I nurture for love or capitalism.

I want to be with them and I find it actually offensive to assume that looking after my family is somehow living off a man or worth less than some techie job.

Yeah, I have yet to understand how it is that it's lame to want to take care of your own kids, but as soon as you take care of other people's kids for money it's all good. Or clean other people's houses, switch out roles volunteering at the school or community for pay, etc.

How is it that kicking money up to the next level in the social hierarchy suddenly makes you a better member of society?

If people need to stay wholly independent there is no point in marriage at all because that isn't how it works.

I

[quote Dontknowowt]@stirrednotshaken80 That's a somewhat middle-class view. I have a career and work ft, my partner also works ft, but if one of us gave up work we simply wouldn't be able to pay the bills (unless on benefits).[/quote]
This can sometimes be the case for the middle class more than those whose jobs are less well paying. In that instance, often childcare can cost more than the salary that would be brought in. Or close enough that staying home seems ta better option than low-cost childcare.

A lot of the SAHP I know are on the lower end of the middle classes or working classes.

That's me smoked duck

@SmokedDuck Well fair play to those working class families who can afford for one parent to be a SAHP. I'd love to know how they manage it? All I know is that if either of us gave up ft work we'd not be able to manage without benefits etc. So hats off to them

[quote Dontknowowt]@SmokedDuck Well fair play to those working class families who can afford for one parent to be a SAHP. I'd love to know how they manage it? All I know is that if either of us gave up ft work we'd not be able to manage without benefits etc. So hats off to them [/quote]
I couldn't say, I don't know how you spend your money.

But what do you think the option is, if you will pay more for working - childcare plus other employment related expenses - than you will make? You can't leave the kids at home alone.

In some families, it is not affordable for both parents to work, because childcare is too expensive to be covered by one partner's low wage. Does that make them middle class too? Frankly you are coming across as rather snide and superior, OP, and not very supportive of the choices women sometimes need to make. Not very feminist of you.

@LemonRoses I have liked your thoughts on this thread. I am currently reading Liberating Motherhood by Vanessa Olorenshaw and I am finding it intriguing - you may also enjoy it.

@SmokedDuck I still don't see how one parent say on minimum wage can support a family solely with their income alone?

Yes, me too Lemon. I started a thread along the lines of what you've been saying a few years ago, and had some interesting responses.

Are/should male norms be the benchmark for female 'equality'? Should 'femininity' be prized too? www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3090897-are-should-male-norms-be-the-benchmark-for-female-equality-should-femininity-be-prized-too

(Sorry if that link doesn't appear.)

[quote OwlSock]@LemonRoses I have liked your thoughts on this thread. I am currently reading Liberating Motherhood by Vanessa Olorenshaw and I am finding it intriguing - you may also enjoy it.[/quote]
Excellent- my turn to choose a book for book club and sounds like that might spark lively discussion. I’ll have a look.

I’m with you@LemonRosesabout the unique role of mothering distinct from fathering and the fact that it is an undervalued role which makes an important contribution to family and society

What is this unique role? Seriously, I'm a mother- I don't think my role in parenting was any different than my husband's.

@MissBarbary I agree with you 100%.

[quote Dontknowowt]@SmokedDuck I still don't see how one parent say on minimum wage can support a family solely with their income alone?[/quote]
Probably what you have is one parent who would make something more than minimum wage, or who holds down two jobs, and a second parent who would make less, and they get by. They probably can't live in certain areas or maybe even certain cities.

If it's one parent only on minimum wage they are likely going to qualify for some kind of help. But it still might not make sense for them to go to two wages while the children are very small.

@SmokedDuck Ah thanks, I understand. I thought they must qualify for some help/benefits in that case otherwise I just couldn't see how they'd make ends meet solely on one income alone.

@SmokedDuck Ah thanks, I understand. I thought they must qualify for some help/benefits in that case otherwise I just couldn't see how they'd make ends meet solely on one income alone.

I sometimes reflect that working is meant to facilitate the things we want in life, like having a family. It seems odd to me to forego these things in order to work more.

'True feminism' sounds like something to fail at to be honest. I am sure we go through out lives not always making choices with 'feminism' in mind. It makes it sound like an ideology rather than an aim.

For example, I aim for girls to have equal sporting opportunities with boys. However, some terms I just want to spend time with my family and don't want to run an after school club. I guess that makes me an imperfect feminist. Does it cancel out the previous opportunities I have given with past clubs though?

I think the reality is lives are complicated and messy in general.