Can you be a true feminist if you...?

[Dontknowowt]

Basically marry a rich partner
so you can give up work?

My mum was raised solely by her dad in 70'a (basically because her mum had a affair and literally buggered off one day). He was remarkable - working at least 2 jobs at a time whenever he could to put food on the table for his five kids. It was a very unusual situation back then.

My mum raised me to work hard so I could get a career and be self-sufficient as she saw how important that was for her dad and ultimately their family e.g. you don't know what's around the corner in any marriage.

Do you think a lot of people just go through their lives ultimately planning to rely on someone else financially?

It just doesn't sit easy with me.

I'm still interested to know what OP thinks a "true feminist" is...

@HecatesCatsInFancyHats

I'm still interested to know what OP thinks a "true feminist" is...

Probably a male one

@MissBarbary

LemonRoses

Dontknowowt

@Checkingout811It doesn't make me a better/more important parent than my child's father simply because I gave birth to her!

It doesn’t make you a better parent. It makes you a mother and definitely a better mother

Giving birth makes you a better mother? How insulting to mothers of adopted children.

Trying desperately to misinterpret doesn’t help anyone improve a women’s lot.

Giving birth undoubtedly makes you a mother. That doesn’t mean mothers who adopt are not valid mothers. It means giving birth is definitely a way of being a mother. Women who give birth are undisputedly better mothers than any man can possibly be.

My sister in law, who adopted, went through far more pain, had a far more emotional roller coaster and felt the same endorphin release when she cradled my niece. Nobody is suggesting she is not a mother. Her husband, however, is most definitely not.

[quote Dontknowowt]@BitterAndOnlySlightlyTwisted How do "poor" people manage not to have two incomes? I know we couldn't![/quote]
We are living in a caravan.

I hate this idea that because I am a sahm I am somehow not a feminist. It's utter nonsense.
When me and my dh married I was the one with a better job, by the time we had kids he had changed sector's and was earning more than me. Financially it made more sense for me to be home and tbh I just wanted to be home for the first couple of years of my children's lives. My choice for my situation. I have friends who made different choices and that is right for their situations. I have the right to choose and that doesn't make me less of a feminist.

The problem is capitalism. There is no provision for anyone to make active choices about how much or little they work, while still being a contributing and active member of society. Yes, we have the welfare state, but in many regions what it pays is well short of the cost of living and in any case it’s designed as a last resort. Secure housing, whether rented or owned, costs money. Childcare costs money. Food, transport and clothing costs money. Hobbies and leisure cost money. Someone has to work to earn that money.

The problem with the traditional heterosexual set-up of a woman at home and a man being the breadwinner is that until fairly recently it was the expectation, with women’s legal rights actually diminishing once they married. This might have changed now from the legal standpoint but due to remaining societal and workplace expectations, it it still seen as the easier option for it to be the mother rather than father to be a SAHP.

There should of course be more support for parents in the early years in the way of subsidised or free childcare, flexible working for all, perhaps even special early years grants and benefits for parents of 0-3 year olds.

But should it only be women who get a choice in life of whether to work or stay home and raise a family? Should it only be mothers and parents? Shouldn’t anyone, male or female, have the choice in an ideal world to spend their time as they see fit? Until being a SAHP is seen as a valid, supported and equal choice for men and women, it isn’t really a free choice. Also, how many people saying they wouldn’t work if their husband earned big bucks would be happy with a man saying he wouldn’t work if he married a rich woman?

My sister in law, who adopted, went through far more pain, had a far more emotional roller coaster and felt the same endorphin release when she cradled my niece. Nobody is suggesting she is not a mother

Lemon said giving birth makes a better mother

Giving birth undoubtedly makes you a mother. That doesn’t mean mothers who adopt are not valid mothers. It means giving birth is definitely a way of being a mother. Women who give birth are undisputedly better mothers than any man can possibly be

That's not what Lemon said. She said

"It[giving birth]doesn’t make you a better parent. It makes you a mother and definitely a better mother"

Tell me this "different" role mothers have- do we teach children to be kind and sympathetic and do fathers in their "different" role teach them to strong and brave?

@TedMullins. But the choice is rarely 'equal' due to uneven distribution of salary etc (as supported by a society that historically is slanted in favour of men.) When I gave up work, my partner earned triple what I did at the time - so that had to factor into our decision making process.

@Dontknowowt. I can't decide of you are being goady or just disingenuous - but I'll bite.

You seem to be making a lot of sweeping generalisations. Women don't necessarily marry a rich man so they can stay at home (well maybe there are some who do, but I suggest they are in a minority.) Instead a lot of these choices are shaped by society around us. Generally men are still better paid and able to progress more quickly than women through their careers. The reasons for this are, I suspect, very complicated- but influenced hugely by their just being born male. (Patriarchy, I'm looking at you) and whilst gender equality has shifted, it's not yet far enough for everyone to be able to make choices for their family on a totally level playing field.

And that is what I object to most in your line of argument. I am assuming you believe yourself to be a true feminist because you feel you have set up your families life to be as equal as you can make it, because that is what feminism looks like to you. But this negates the more complicated and nuanced world in which we live. Just because you were able to do something that supports your identity as a feminist- doesn't mean that another women with a different set of boundaries is any less of a feminist. There is no such thing as a 'true' feminist, that all sounds a bit othering to me, and if we just stopped passing judgement on other women for a while and put that energy into more positive pursuits the world would be a better place.

The world isn't black and white, things are not one thing or another. A stay at home mum does not have to be the opposite value of a working mother. Life is so much more nuanced and complicated than that.

We need to stop defining ourselves by what we are, not what we are not.

I think it is quite clear from the overall tone of this post plus the later comments from OP diverting from the initial topic... that OP would like to be a SAHM but can’t afford to.

She has then come on here out of jealousy, to encourage “bad mouthing” of SAHM under the guise of them being anti feminist or gold diggers in order to garner agreeance.

Clearly agenda this has backfired and now the sudden change of topic regarding SAHD has been brought about to deflect from the pretty distasteful original post.

@MissBarbary

My sister in law, who adopted, went through far more pain, had a far more emotional roller coaster and felt the same endorphin release when she cradled my niece. Nobody is suggesting she is not a mother

Lemon said giving birth makes a better mother

You missed "than any man can be" which is true. No man is or ever was a mother.

You're wrong. I married a wealthy and abusive guy who tried very hard to push upon me being a SAHM. In reality that was because he wanted the trophy wife and because he was a high earner it was very insulting to Mr Big Balls that a) That wife was working when she didn't need to be and b) He didn't want me to have an independent life away from his control. Thank God I didn't agree to give up working, albeit part time, as I needed that career to fall back on when one day I left the marital home and he changed the locks. Without my career we'd have been left homeless.
Don't for one second think this can't happen to anyone married to someone who has money, and being a SAHM does leave you vulnerable, especially if you have been out of the workplace for a long period of time.

@LimpLettice And yes, I do believe men can be feminists.

You missed "than any man can be" which is true. No man is or ever was a mother

Lemon didn't say that. Those words were added by someone else. That addition makes no sense- of course men can't be mothers.

Lemon explicitly refers to "better mothers" - who or what is a "better " mother than another mother,?

Would you mind describing your feminism Dontknowowt, so I can understand the context to your OP?

@HecatesCatsInFancyHats For me it's not using "feminism" just because it may suit me better to do so. And it's treating everyone - regardless of gender - with the same respect.

You ain’t no feminist, bruv.

@BelleClapper You mean not by your definition, sis?

For me it's not using "feminism" just because it may suit me better to do so

Sorry I don’t understand this bit, could you explain please

[quote Dontknowowt]@HecatesCatsInFancyHats For me it's not using "feminism" just because it may suit me better to do so. And it's treating everyone - regardless of gender - with the same respect.[/quote]
Except you’ve judged women with wealthy partners.... so that just add up.

You having had that experience in your life doesn’t mean other women will too or there is something wrong with women/feminists who don’t follow your example.

Feminism isn’t about flat out equality. Men and women are different, not just societally or economically. Women are evolutionarily programmed to seek men who can provide and protect - not just wealth but strength and kindness. Testosterone makes men bigger, more aggressive and more likely to take risks, the latter equals rewards. Women are smaller and weaker so needed protection. Just the same as men are more visually driven when seeking a “mate”, signs of youth and good health. Humans are more complex and can undo some of this instinct thankfully. Male and female brains aren’t that different aside from hormones so intellectual pursuits, such as modern careers, don’t need to be sex specific.

Hating on women for wanting to marry a man who can provide well and her wanting to stay home with kids is misogyny.

Putting others down to make yourself feel better is not the route to happiness.

Doesn’t^

@ShastaBeast I totally disagree.
"Women are smaller and weaker and need protection."
No thanks.

Needed. Otherwise you’d be eaten by a lion or raped by another man. Bonobos are pretty cool but sadly we didn’t evolve that way, but not quite as bad as the chimps. Unless you’d don’t believe in evolution...

Now we are protected by the law and civilisation. Both created by men. But ultimately enforced by the big strong men or the big weapons they wield.

Denying evolution, reproductive roles and biology is not going to help anyone.

There’s never going to be total flat out equality, it’s more about fairness. We should celebrate differences instead of denying them. Women are being told we are the same as men, but isn’t true.

Feminist utopia = no need for protection from male violence. But we still have the fear and want of protection and a provider.

Same as my kids being scared to sleep alone. We’ve evolved to build safe houses and emigrated to places without lions etc. But my kids are still scared no matter what the logic demonstrates.