Can you be a true feminist if you...?

[Dontknowowt]

Basically marry a rich partner
so you can give up work?

My mum was raised solely by her dad in 70'a (basically because her mum had a affair and literally buggered off one day). He was remarkable - working at least 2 jobs at a time whenever he could to put food on the table for his five kids. It was a very unusual situation back then.

My mum raised me to work hard so I could get a career and be self-sufficient as she saw how important that was for her dad and ultimately their family e.g. you don't know what's around the corner in any marriage.

Do you think a lot of people just go through their lives ultimately planning to rely on someone else financially?

It just doesn't sit easy with me.

• in the 70's

I suspect the number of women who choose to marry a rich man so they can give up work are few and far between. However getting married, having a family and giving up work is not the reserve solely of rich people. Becoming financially dependent on another person carries risks for rich and poor alike

(Edit: tbf it was more 60's when my mum was a teenager but she also had an older - and younger - siblings).

@BitterAndOnlySlightlyTwisted How do "poor" people manage not to have two incomes? I know we couldn't!

I not think many plan to live off others. I do think many couples believe women have a choice to work or to be supported to allow them to raise a family. Both are valid choices. The mother at home with children is working and contributing equally but differently.

The problem is not a need for women to be self sufficient but a society that doesn’t value mothering.

@LemonRoses So what if husband leaves them without anything? This happened to me but I did marry a sly Chartered Accountant ha ha! I was grateful I hadn't given up my career as he pressured me to do so many times. I needed to work to house and feed the kids.

@LemonRoses And of course equally the man could choose to be a SAHD?

Do you think a lot of people just go through their lives ultimately planning to rely on someone else financially?

I think they're out there.
I don't think they'd self identify as feminists though.
And as a pp has pointed out, taking a break from work to care for children or families is a job someone in the family often has to do. It doesn't make sense financially for many families to pay someone else to do these duties.
In my case I already am the lower wage earner (probably sexism played a role in that- we both have similar qualifications and the same profession. DH got boosted up the ladder quicker. Many mums stay home.for physical reasons ie. breastfeeding.

Saying that, I think both DH and I would love not to have to work. But neither of us had the good sense to marry for money 😂

@GoingThruTheMotions I agree - they just don't like to admit it!!!

[quote Dontknowowt]@LemonRoses So what if husband leaves them without anything? This happened to me but I did marry a sly Chartered Accountant ha ha! I was grateful I hadn't given up my career as he pressured me to do so many times. I needed to work to house and feed the kids.[/quote]
I think that is nothing to do with feminism and everything to do with a failure to choose a spouse who doesn’t truly consider his wife his equal. If both parties have equal access to all family assets, nobody is left high and dry.
The man could choose to be a SAHD but that’s counterintuitive to my version of female equality. I believe mothering is as important as paid employment and deserves the same respect. Women should be valued for birthing and nurturing children well. Men can usurp motherhood, but they can neither birth nor feed. It is unique to women and needs improved status generally.

@LemonRoses What about when the baby becomes say a toddler? For example, my daughter is just turning one. Her dad is equally as good a parent as I am; the fact he is a man and I am a woman makes no difference.

And another reason why I took the whole maternity was that we know DH was employed at least in part for his non maternity qualities. We knew he would be punished and possibly pushed out if we deviated from the norm and it just wouldn't be worth it, especially as we couldn't pay the mortgage on my meagre wage.

But that is another reason men don't often become sahd. Fear.

@GoingThruTheMotions I get that, and it seems unfair to me that they should feel like that.

Do you think it is as well (correct me if I'm wrong) that the man tends to be the higher earner?

It isn't the case for us but I think we're unusual in that.

[quote Dontknowowt]@LemonRoses What about when the baby becomes say a toddler? For example, my daughter is just turning one. Her dad is equally as good a parent as I am; the fact he is a man and I am a woman makes no difference.[/quote]
I’m not suggesting a man isn’t a good parent. They make pretty rubbish mothers though. I do believe mothering is unique and very special and should be celebrated.
My husband is an excellent father. He’ll never be a mother though and however modern it is is to suggest that man and woman are synonymous, they are not. I think we do women a disservice by trying to insist they become male like in their desire for freedom and equality. I’ve no desire to be the same as a man. I like womanhood. I don’t feel a lesser person because he earns far more than me; I believe we have earned his salary.

@LemonRoses I disagree that women make better parents than men just because they are women. Surely that's sexist?!

[quote Dontknowowt]@LemonRoses I disagree that women make better parents than men just because they are women. Surely that's sexist?![/quote]
Did I say women make better parents? No, I said women make better mothers !

Night

@LemonRoses So following that logic, men make better fathers?

I can tell you where the legal system sits with this. I have shared 50/50 care of my two children since they were 3 and 5. I was still bf'ing my toddler btw. Their view is both parents are equal when it comes to raising children.

What's a true feminist OP?

I can only speak for our situation. DH like the other men on our course, got snapped up early and climbed the ladder. Myself and my female peers landed jobs slowly after that, so I am a good 2 years behind to begin with.
Both myself and my husband then moved abroad to work. My husband got his old job back when he moved back. Part of that is he's wonderful at his job, but I think being a male in a very female field where males are prized helps.
By the time we moved back I was 5+ years behind him in progression, which has further widened by promotion etc. We've accepted I'll never be the breadwinner, but his job always felt more 'secure' anyway. It's hard to separate what's sex, personality and talent in regard to that, as we both have good points and bad like all professionals.
I don't consider myself less a feminist because he earns more than me. We both understand the system needs changing but there's not much we can do about it as individuals.

I can't help but think some women want equality but only when it suits them? Just my feeling of course.

@GoingThruTheMotions Of course, I totally get that. I agree with you that the system needs changing.

I guess our set-up is slightly unusual in that I'm the higher earner (I'm qualified to post-grad level, OH didn't go to uni).

I also echo what others have said that mothering isn't valued enough.

@GoingThruTheMotions I dont think fathering is either tbf. Hence maybe why in separations it is still often the case that mum has most custody. I don't think that should always automatically be the case?

I'm not sure about separations, don't some father's kind of wash their hands as it were? DH certainly has friends who consider raising the child mum's job whilst they get to be fun Sunday dad's. DH not like that at all, but he's a very rare breed.

Ideally I would like all jobs to allow much more time at home and for family whether they have kids or not.
I'm pretty sure most jobs could be condensed into a productive 3-4 day week, but things seem to just go the other way sadly.

Interesting question. My DC are now mid teens. I've been a single parent sine they were babies (twins). Met now DH when they were 6. Moved in together when they were 9. Dated no one else in that time. I was primary carer and full time employee. At one point, after paying child care and mortgage, I had less money than if I'd been on benefits. I didn't stop working though because I consider state support to be only marginally more reliable than relying on a partner.
Yes, I DO think relying on a partner is a very vulnerable position to put yourself in because it ISN'T valued by society. However, do I think it's unfeminist? No. I think society has the perspective problem, not the individual woman who's made that choice.
Children are labour intensive. Especially in their early years. SOMEBODY has to look after them. Who would be a more natural choice than the parent who gestated and brought them into the world? How have we reached a point where a role as essential to the continuation of society as growing crops for food is so undervalued? It's because capitalism and patriarchy combine to devalue it. If child care was considered in GDP and separated NRPs had to pay half of any professional child care costs incurred by the RP I think we'd see it valued very differently.
So you could argue that women who marry to give up work and have children are actually just valuing themselves as they should! That's surely quite a feminist stance! It's a precarious one though precisely because in general society doesn't agree.
Giving up work without children in the mix though? Less so. I think that's potentially foolish and possibly quite selfish although there will always be individual couples where it's a mutual decision that is in both parties best interests.