GRA Reform, Legal Self Declaration, has no effect on access to spaces

[ool0n]

I'm wondering given the recent convincing defeat of gender critical ideology in the high court vs EHRC - if the Mumsnet gender critical people finally accept the fact that having a GRC has no effect on access to spaces?

People on the other side of the debate like myself have been explaining to GC people on Twitter for years that having a GRC has no effect on access to spaces so their objection to GRA reform is/was unfounded. I/we based this on -

1. English government legal analysis that stated having a GRC has no effect on access to spaces
2. Scottish government legal analysis ... ditto ...
3. The EA 2010 and GA 2004 text
4. The practical impossibility that a BC (Not an ID document) could be of any use in deciding access

now we have

1. Gender critical crowdfunded challenge to EHRC guidance that says having a GRC has no effect on access to spaces. Comprehensively lost, not even passed the very low bar to even be considered for a Judicial Review.

Given this is the case will gender critical people be reevaluating their assertion "Self ID", as in GRA Reform, must be opposed as it effects access to spaces? Trans people have always been able to "Self ID", in the colloquial sense, into men's and women's spaces. So making it easier for trans people to change their birth certificates only helps them, has no effect on GC feminists, and/or cisgender women and spaces.

(I also wonder if there'll be any introspection as to why an obviously incorrect interpretation of the law was able to become so prevalent in gender critical circles. Maybe listen to groups outside of GC circles a bit more?)

Germaine was a passionate advocate of the flugelhorn, I believe, but don't ask me where that sits on the brass spectrum.

Ah thank you for your reply Spoony, much appreciated.

Any more thoughts from TW as to why they might want to enter a space that was traditionally held to be a female space, like women only yoga or swimming or a red tent at a festival? Cheers m'dears.

@Sophoclesthefox

Right away the ability to produce eggs, and sperm, can and do change. Seems we have a different definition of "immutable". To me it's the dictionary defn of never changing through time. It seems to you it means something else entirely

You think that because I’ve gone through the menopause, I’m no longer a woman . Crikey, you are in a pickle and no mistake.

No, that would be the claim of someone who says "sex" is "produces eggs", or "produces sperm" and that is intrinsically linked to genders of man/woman (enby probably doesn't exist in their worldview). I certainly don't hold that view.

If you could grab a male family member and get them to test this theory, I'd be grateful.
Ask them to go to the women's gym and simply say that they intend to transition. Please let us know if the staff let him into the women's facilities.

Isn’t that suggestion a bit transphobic spoonrider? Surely under the premise of the OP the “male family member” would be just as much a woman as any other transwoman.

Let me see, Spoon

I've posted about gait before. Every human being can recognize a male and a female when they are walking. It's that sneaky sexed bodies things. It's not just the biology, it's the physiology too. I spent decades of my life lecturing on the effects of physiology on sporting performance... there are many, many easy to read books non the topic.

And I have posted many times about the trans people in my life. Usually in rebuttal to posts like yours. But it doesn't matter if you choose not to believe me. But, so you know what you are choosing not to believe, I've known a transvestite since the 80s, when our friendship group were all gender benders (maybe non binary in today's more rigid parlance). I've been the primary support for a transman for about 20 years, his post op support after all if his surgeries, and his Best Woman at his wedding 2 years ago. And I also know a transwoman, for just under 20 years. She doesn't agree with the current TRA lobbying. It is not being done to help her live her life any more easily.

There you go. Now you know you are ignoring 30+ years of friendship.

Come on now, we all know that women only ever sit around talking about makeup, periods and boys, and how much we like twirling in skirts.

There'll be no passing the Bechdel test in this thread thank you very much.

Just picking up on something a previous poster said that really resonated.

One of the biggest giveaways is often the socialisation. Women hold back, appease, cajole, pander in all walks of life. Most often subconsciously as we've been conditioned to always put males first and many if not most women have been on the receiving end of aggression if not violence when they have forgot themselves and spoken out of turn.

I'm lucky enough to have many trans people in my life and its interesting to note that the male socialisation definitely seems to stick around after transition.

So the idea that women don't say anything in single sex spaces because they don't notice is laughable. But many transwomen genuinely can't see this, as their male socialisation means that they WOULD say something. So they assume that if we saw something or was uncomfortable we would say. And that is simply not true.

Cor blimey, do we have a new sex is soooooo impossible poster? How nice.

We haven't had a new one for a while.

No, that would be the claim of someone who says "sex" is "produces eggs", or "produces sperm" and that is intrinsically linked to genders of man/woman (enby probably doesn't exist in their worldview).

Noone says "produces eggs" as defining sex. Otherwise all girls would be sexless before menarche and likewise women post menopause would cease to be female.

See Nettie project statement linked previously.

I'll happily buy him some flowers and grapes for when he's lying in bed in the male hospital ward, healing from his beating by women. edited by MNHQ at OP's request

Isn’t it amazing that someone who “identifies” as us has so little idea what women are like and what our experiences are like.

Making the case for single sex spaces starker with every word they write.

Shame the thread has descended into phrenology of gaits, faces and gendered stereotypes.

So far not really had much feedback on if any GC people agree now that having a GRC has no effect on access to spaces, as per the original post. Or if they are clinging to this false belief?

🤣 it's like death and taxes.

I don't know, trumpet lessons look pretty intimidating.

@zzizzer

Come on now, we all know that women only ever sit around talking about makeup, periods and boys, and how much we like twirling in skirts.

There'll be no passing the Bechdel test in this thread thank you very much.

Don't forget the sleepovers where we watch Mean Girls on a loop, braid each others hair and have pillow fights in our lingerie!

"Why aren't you all taking me terribly seriously, you hideous wenches."

@ool0n

Shame the thread has descended into phrenology of gaits, faces and gendered stereotypes.

So far not really had much feedback on if any GC people agree now that having a GRC has no effect on access to spaces, as per the original post. Or if they are clinging to this false belief?

As if. Phrenology was a clearly debunkable pseudoscience. Is your argument really that physiology is unscientific in the same way as phrenology is??

Clinging. Yeah women are clingy. Or Klingons?

Nah. Let's go to the pub instead, they'll be open soon

Just picking up this comment by tinsel.

Can you imagine! it's going to be great. I remember watching the bemused faces of the staff after several meetings in London, wondering where all these hundreds of women came from 🥂

I am! Very serious, here. Sorry, OP. I'm thinking.

When do you require an answer for?

So far not really had much feedback on if any GC people agree now that having a GRC has no effect on access to spaces, as per the original post.

It would be wise to wait to read carefully the judge's findings

Phrenology?

Your problem is you are talking to women who think the GRC is bunkum, whatever you think it does in law!

@zzizzer

... Well I'm convinced. Men can clearly be women because they say so and have made other people say so too. No more gender criticism activism for me

Me too! You know now I come to think about it there is no physical, biological or psyco-social difference between males and females at all..... I wonder if anyone bothered to take the time to tell all those poor kids who've been told they need puberty blockers and cross sex hormones or die?

@R0wantrees

What is a cornet, exactly? Is it bigger or smaller than a trumpet?

Its more compact and has a mellower tone.

And the mint choc chip ones are really scrummy.