GRA Reform, Legal Self Declaration, has no effect on access to spaces

[ool0n]

I'm wondering given the recent convincing defeat of gender critical ideology in the high court vs EHRC - if the Mumsnet gender critical people finally accept the fact that having a GRC has no effect on access to spaces?

People on the other side of the debate like myself have been explaining to GC people on Twitter for years that having a GRC has no effect on access to spaces so their objection to GRA reform is/was unfounded. I/we based this on -

1. English government legal analysis that stated having a GRC has no effect on access to spaces
2. Scottish government legal analysis ... ditto ...
3. The EA 2010 and GA 2004 text
4. The practical impossibility that a BC (Not an ID document) could be of any use in deciding access

now we have

1. Gender critical crowdfunded challenge to EHRC guidance that says having a GRC has no effect on access to spaces. Comprehensively lost, not even passed the very low bar to even be considered for a Judicial Review.

Given this is the case will gender critical people be reevaluating their assertion "Self ID", as in GRA Reform, must be opposed as it effects access to spaces? Trans people have always been able to "Self ID", in the colloquial sense, into men's and women's spaces. So making it easier for trans people to change their birth certificates only helps them, has no effect on GC feminists, and/or cisgender women and spaces.

(I also wonder if there'll be any introspection as to why an obviously incorrect interpretation of the law was able to become so prevalent in gender critical circles. Maybe listen to groups outside of GC circles a bit more?)

I’m supposed to be reading my new book

But i reeeeaaaalllllly want to see if bernards question gets answered

Can...can you wims see me?

Excellent, something they all agree on. Where is the data for this? We have Ireland, Iceland, Portugal, Argentina, all with legal self ID. Where is the data that backs up their beliefs? There should be plenty of it right? Showing poor outcomes for women in countries with legal self declaration...

You show your ignorance again.

By "legal self ID " I presume you mean the ability to self declare your legal sex? This has nothing to do with access to spaces- for example in the UK the issue is the Equality Act not the Gender Recognition Act.

In countries where sex can be self identified there is plenty of evidence that this is hugely problematic. Canada for example....does the name Yaniv mean anything to you?

ool0n you know the criteria you used when deciding on the mechanics of having your children? That's the same criteria most people use when defining the terms woman & man in terms of sex. See, common ground!

So, the only differences are around whether something is segregated by sex or gender or neither. And that's where the conversation should lie, imho.

OP, I was wondering if you might share your thoughts on why most women prefer single sex spaces for getting changed, going to the toilet, receiving medical procedures and in prisons for example?

@SelfPortraitWithEels

Hmmm. I wonder why some women might prefer single sex toilets?

If only we had someone here who knew precisely how’GC’ think

Oh hi @ool0n! I think you can help!

There's no "GC movement."

There are a lot of people who are able to see through the lies and recognise the potential for safeguarding boundaries to be broken.

Which does and has happened.

And a lot of people extremely concerned about children and young people taking drugs for an idea that they're "wrong" that will do lasting physical damage.

Those people come from all walks of life.

@SelfPortraitWithEels

Hmmm. I wonder why some women might prefer single sex toilets?

For probably the fifth time now, they don't exist. According to gender critical people who say toilets that let in trans people are "mixed sex". So how can anyone say women in the UK prefer them when they've never used them? No one seems able to answer my question.... Or maybe you should ask yourself how women have got on perfectly well all your life in toilets that are defined "mixed sex" by gender critical people, and for some reason they are now kicking up a fuss about them?

No problems with self ID in Ireland? www.lawsociety.ie/gazette/top-stories/male-bodied-transgender-inmate-housed-with-women-prisoners/

Hmmm. I wonder why some women might prefer single sex toilets?

I think its more interesting to consider the reasons why some men might be invested in undermining female single sex spaces and Safeguarding.

@BernardBlackMissesLangCleg

Can...can you wims see me?

Weird blank post

And has anyone seen bernard lately

You’d think she’d hang around for her answer

For probably the fifth time now, they don't exist

Oh dear. Reading comprehension isn’t your strong suit is it?

Why do you think women might prefer single sex toilets?

The question isn’t do they exist, it’s why might some people prefer them

Yeah, if only she'd asked more than once she might have got an actual answer...

@BlueLipstickRocks

Excellent, something they all agree on. Where is the data for this? We have Ireland, Iceland, Portugal, Argentina, all with legal self ID. Where is the data that backs up their beliefs? There should be plenty of it right? Showing poor outcomes for women in countries with legal self declaration...

You show your ignorance again.

By "legal self ID " I presume you mean the ability to self declare your legal sex? This has nothing to do with access to spaces- for example in the UK the issue is the Equality Act not the Gender Recognition Act.

In countries where sex can be self identified there is plenty of evidence that this is hugely problematic. Canada for example....does the name Yaniv mean anything to you?

You think one person = data???

Where are the statistics in Canada where self ID there has caused problems for women? Surely they exist, I've been told Self ID = "The end of women's rights", Canada must be a hell hole for women by now. Worse than Saudi Arabia?

It’s honestly not a difficult question

You aren’t answering it by saying they don’t exist.....

Lets agree they don’t exist, but now women are saying can we please have single sex toilets

Can you see why some women would need single sex toilets...to be invented (in your weird other dimension thing you’ve got going)

I've just learnt of a new porn and only fans category. Which seems to be becoming more and more popular.

Certain people accessing women's toilets and changing rooms to masterbate, film and sell the soiled knickers. And worse.

Female toilet spaces that children go into.

And has anyone seen bernard lately

This is hateful anti Bernard bullying

Shame on you all

I thought you were on the side of marginalized people @ool0n?

Help me, I’m being oppressed

[quote stonecat]It's always valuable to hear from transwomen on this subject

[[https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.economist.com/open-future/2018/07/03/a-system-of-gender-self-identification-would-put-women-at-risk]]

[[https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.spectator.co.uk/article/Why-a-trans-woman-thinks-self-ID-is-a-mistake/amp]][/quote]
We have countries with self identification, where's the data that proves these views?

@R0wantrees

Hmmm. I wonder why some women might prefer single sex toilets?

I think its more interesting to consider the reasons why some men might be invested in undermining female single sex spaces and Safeguarding.

This.

@SelfPortraitWithEels

Yeah, if only she'd asked more than once she might have got an actual answer...

I blame myself for not being persevering enough

The digested read of all the OP's posts: quiet, women, a man is talking

Bernard

I've always wondered why women might prefer single sex toilets - you know, the kind that exist in the real world and have done for longer than I've been alive.

@somethinginoffensive

1. Sex is immutable.

What characteristic of sex?

The characteristic that you can either produce eggs and give birth if these are fertilised or you can produce sperm.

This goes along with XX or XY chromosomes for the most part, that are replicated in every cell of your body.

Adding hormones at a level the opposite sex has would have some effects but not change your sex.

I think you knew that, really.

This

Also shame to see ‘cis’ being used on threads again.

Woman is fine for non trans women.