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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Lesbian Visibility Week

999 replies

Shizuku · 27/04/2021 11:40

Shout out to my fellow lesbians on this important week!

I will be wearing my lesbian pride badge right next to my trans pride badge for the whole week in all public spaces.

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yourhairiswinterfire · 29/04/2021 12:54

Absolutely, just as you should end the gaslighting of young vulnerable lesbians who have partners who happen to be trans women, so they don't feel they have to only accept partners you approve of.

I couldn't care any less about consenting women who are happy to be in relationships with TW, that's not my concern. Good for them. I've never said they need my approval?

I'm talking specifically about the same sex attracted lesbians that are being coerced, sexually harassed, intimidated, bullied. People telling them that something is wrong with them simply because other women are in relationships with TW. This has made lesbians believe they need fixing (which sounds a lot like conversion therapy, no?), and has resulted in them sleeping with someone they didn't want to sleep with and are now traumatised as a result. I don't know how anyone can read those accounts I posted and not be absolutely sickened.

So would you agree that lesbians that are exclusively same sex attracted deserve their own spaces?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 29/04/2021 12:55

I am not "cisgender". Because it's your in-group label suggesting that women are a subset of our own sex. I don't believe in the things you do. I'm a woman. That is, an adult human female. Do not refer to me as "cisgender", as it's not a valid term for me.

Chrysanthemum5 · 29/04/2021 12:56

@Shizuku you agreed with this:

"No male born person can ever experience a same sex orientation to females...because they are of the opposite sex."

Agreed.

So as you are a transwoman you were male born(regardless of how you identify etc your body at birth was male) doesn't that mean you are agreeing you can't be a lesbian?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 29/04/2021 12:57

If you want to use "cisgender" along with transgender you need to acknowledge that there are women who are neither.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 29/04/2021 12:57

I think I'll carry on believing in the legal definition of the word 'lesbian', as R0wantrees helpfully highlighted upthread, thanks.

The word is taken. People who don't fit the definition - good luck to you, love whoever will have you & all that - but you need a different word.

Yes.

SunsetBeetch · 29/04/2021 12:58

Okay but I'm not just talking about women in this thread.

No woman who disagrees with you on this point would consider themselves "cis gender"

JensonsAcolyte · 29/04/2021 12:58

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 29/04/2021 12:59

I agree with you Jenson.

sanluca · 29/04/2021 13:03

Shizuku, you lost me.
You say:
That's OK - I was born female.

But you also said that with breast cancer screening you mentioned you were trans. So are you a transman then? Because I remember you saying you were a transwoman, which would mean someone with a male biology.

JensonsAcolyte · 29/04/2021 13:06

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

JensonsAcolyte · 29/04/2021 13:07

What the fuck?

Does someone at MNHQ want to tell me why that last but one post was deleted?

Zinco · 29/04/2021 13:07

Okay. Well I'll leave you all to continue to believe what you wish.

Er, no. I think it's more you that wants to believe what you "wish". i.e. you are off in the realm of fantasy.

However trans women are women therefore they can be lesbians

So you're starting from a false premise and that's why you are getting confused about lesbians.

Don't tell others who they have to be by your standards.

Do you apply that same standard to racial self-identification? Probably not right?

Don't lie to people that self-identification is a form of magic that can turn you into something else.

JensonsAcolyte · 29/04/2021 13:08

Oh come on.

SunsetBeetch · 29/04/2021 13:10

@JensonsAcolyte

What the fuck?

Does someone at MNHQ want to tell me why that last but one post was deleted?

I'd love to know why obviously goady threads and posts are allowed to stand, too. What a fucking farce.
TheWeeDonkey · 29/04/2021 13:13

Well I've reported this thread more than once and asked @MNHQ to clarify their stance on homophobic and goady posts and threads on Mumsnet being as this thread was started days ago.

Still to get a response from them so I guess the answer is that Mumsnet is in support of it. Well done @MNHQ Good job

YouJustDoYou · 29/04/2021 13:14

I'm not attracted to penis.

JensonsAcolyte · 29/04/2021 13:15

So, regarding my last post deletion, do we now have to agree that TW were BORN FEMALE or face deletion/banning?

And why can’t I post about the language creep from W/TW to CW/W?

PrawnofthePatriarchy · 29/04/2021 13:16

A special shout out to ... all the lesbians having to hide their true selves in countries around the world where their love is illegal.

Now that's where male lesbians score. A relationship between an adult male and an adult female isn't illegal anywhere, well apart from jurisdictions in which sex between unmarried partners is illegal. Heterosexual "lesbian" couples are good to go pretty much everywhere.

People are free to sleep with anyone who can give legal consent. But lesbians are female homosexuals. Males don't qualify. A relationship in which PIV sex is possible cannot be homosexual.

BadGherkin · 29/04/2021 13:18

This thread has been massively illuminating.

Blindingly so.

Many, many factors, motivations and agendas have been revealed.

Thank you for the explanations ☀️

Shizuku · 29/04/2021 13:20

@TheWeeDonkey

Well I've reported this thread more than once and asked *@MNHQ* to clarify their stance on homophobic and goady posts and threads on Mumsnet being as this thread was started days ago.

Still to get a response from them so I guess the answer is that Mumsnet is in support of it. Well done @MNHQ Good job

It's not "goady" to post a thread in support of lesbians on lesbian visibility weeks that is inclusive of lesbians who happen to be trans.

Quite a lot of trans people look at these forums fairly regularly, so it's nice to remind them that no everyone here is against them. You don't have to agree with anything I say, but you don't have to try to no-platform or silence me either.

Just say that you don't think trans women are women or that they can be lesbians - I don't mind. I just disagree with you.

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JensonsAcolyte · 29/04/2021 13:22

So apparently one of my posts was a generalisation and the other a personal attack Confused

I’m going to have to leave this thread now because I think the banhammer is hovering.

TheWeeDonkey · 29/04/2021 13:26

Actually Shiz Mumsnet agrres with you that males can be lesbians too so how about that? Turns out we're both lebians! 🌈

Shizuku · 29/04/2021 13:27

@BadGherkin

This thread has been massively illuminating.

Blindingly so.

Many, many factors, motivations and agendas have been revealed.

Thank you for the explanations ☀️

It's really very simple. Some people think trans women are men, some people think trans women are women. You are one of the former, I am one of the latter, and that's OK.

My motivation was to send out a message of solidarity on lesbian visibility week that included lesbians who happen to be trans and their partners. That's all it is.

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HamsterV2 · 29/04/2021 13:28

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

R0wantrees · 29/04/2021 13:28

So, regarding my last post deletion, do we now have to agree that TW were BORN FEMALE or face deletion/banning?

It would be ludicrous timing given the important recent clarification by EHCR QC at Maya Forstater's ET Appeal summarised by ANewCreation,

"Karon Monaghan QC, representing the EHRC, (the official body charged with interpreting the Equality Act 2010 and who have not been doing a good enough job, hence Ann Sinnott's case) was using the evidence of the wording of the very Equality Act itself to say that belief in the 'immutability of sex' is already a protected belief in its own words. It's in the 2010 Act.

From the EHRC submission:
"Further, the EA 2010 itself
recognises that a religious belief that sex is immutable is a protected belief.
Thus, Sch 3, para 24 provides that it is not unlawful gender reassignment
discrimination for a person approving or solemnising a marriage under
religious rites to refuse to do so if they believe that a person’s gender has been
acquired under a Gender Recognition Certificate (corresponding provision is
made in s.5B of the Marriage Act 1949); that is, because they hold a religious
belief that sex is immutable. There can be no justifiable basis in law for
distinguishing between religious or philosophical beliefs..."

The reason that 'religions' hold the belief that our Sex is immutable is because it is immutable. Settled science. Pretty much most of the world believes it too. The sky is blue, grass is green, so I agree with Trump on one thing etc.

The reason that it is included in the Equality Act is not because surprise, only some oddball religious people think sex is immutable. No. It is because of the prohibition in various religions to religious marriage of same-sex couples.

A male person and a male person who identifies as a woman approach a Catholic priest to get married in church. UK law says even if the transwoman has a GRC so is legally female, the priest is not forced to approve or solemnise the marriage against the priest's conscience or their beliefs. If the priest refuses, this is not discrimination against the protected characteristic of gender reassignment.

Yes, it would be an incredibly uncomfortable conversation. Yes, feelings might be very hurt. Yes, you personally might believe that it is offensive to prevent people marrying in a religious ceremony based on their same sex orientation. The religious belief that same-sex religious marriage should be prohibited is still protected.

The Equality Act in this section shows us

  1. that Sex is immutable (this, even according to the Act, is still two males marrying no matter the alterations to body, dress or legal status hence religious objection is legitimate and not discrimination)
  2. that the word Sex as used in the Act is about biological sex and not the social role of women and girls as the original article authors, neither of whom have a GRC, might like to believe and 3) Sex takes primacy over Gender reassignment (even though a male may have a GRC that says they are 'female', they can still be treated as the male they are in certain limited circumstances) hence the exceptions in the Equality Act - and in the GRA - for single sex spaces etc

I think it is a superb point by Karon Monaghan..."

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4230369-Maya-Forstater-is-entitled-to-her-views-but-anti-transgender-beliefs-don-t-belong-in-the-workplace?pg=5

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