Lesbian Visibility Week

[Shizuku]

Shout out to my fellow lesbians on this important week!

I will be wearing my lesbian pride badge right next to my trans pride badge for the whole week in all public spaces.

so by definition they’re going to prioritise gender identity over biological sex - or at least claim to.

The Them magazine (extremely trans friendly) study I posted showed that even for them it's more of a claim that isn't borne out in the reality of who they choose to date.

Validation is actually a normal part of life as a social species. The very reason you are expressing your opinion on this forum is that you seek validation. It's OK - it's normal.
"Well I don't care who thinks I'm "valid" as a lesbian"
You might if there were people trying to make it so that you couldn't marry your partner for example because they don't think that your sexual orientation is valid.

How old are you, Shizuku? Because unless you're quite young, you're surely able to remember a time when 'validation' did not get used in that way. Very recently, in fact! You know perfectly well it's used to mean emotional or identity affirmation. Feelings. Worth as a person.

I'm not exactly ancient (early forties), but when I was young people didn't expect others to be constantly "validating" them all the time. The idea was that you were someone with a self and self-esteem, you might even think of yourself as having an 'identity', but that it wasn't anyone else's job to be going about constantly reflecting your feeling and self-esteem back at you. That sounds in fact pretty needy and neurotic, requiring everyone around you to be always "validating" you.

When I was a teenage lesbian, I wanted rights and representation, but it would have astonished me that it was other people's business to be "validating" me all the time. What happened to developing a strong sense of self, purpose and character? Yes, people need social affirmation, solidarity and recognition; but the idea that people must constantly be emotionally "validated" in their "identity" is a very recent formulation. (I don't believe in "identity" either, by the way - at least, not in the way you think of it.)

Also - I'm not expressing my opinion on this forum to seek emotional validation - I'm engaging in rhetorical and intellectual argument. That isn't anything to do with affirming feelings or identities (though there's a tendency more and more for people to mistake that it is). Intellectual argument is rational. For me, this means feelings and validation are not involved. I'm engaging in debate, not therapy. Sure, you can feel differently; but don't assume that people's challenges to your concepts and ideas are necessarily based in either identity or emotion.

@yourhairiswinterfire

Speaking of Allison's case earlier, I hope to fucking God that it's filmed so I can see the judges ''surprise'' as the new definition of lesbian that actually includes everyone is explained to them.

Cannae fucking wait.

Indeed! Like how the judge was “surprised” at some of what the ONS had said/done in the case about the census - successfully won by the fabulous Fair Play for Women.

[quote Erkrie]Seems that lesbians are waking up to this though. Have you seen the lesbians speak up on this position op on London pride? There's an awful lot of lesbians speaking. And it seems to me that their truth is not in line with what you seem to want.

m.facebook.com/PrideinLondon/photos/a.593863833973207/6390371984322334/?type=3&source=57[/quote]
Gosh, I just clicked on that link, Erkrie - scores and scores of lesbians setting out their boundaries, in far blunter words than we're allowed to use here, all saying they're attracted to women, only women.

Genital preferences are not transphobic. So rules Shizuku. But lots of lesbians here have an exclusive 'preference' for a partner with a vagina. They would like a word that describes someone with an exclusive and permeant preference for a partner with a vagina. Lesbian used to work well. If a new word was adopted, would you then stop trying to join this group? No of course not. That was tried (half jokingly) with the super lesbian thing. Guess what. It was called out as transphobic.

[quote Erkrie]Seems that lesbians are waking up to this though. Have you seen the lesbians speak up on this position op on London pride? There's an awful lot of lesbians speaking. And it seems to me that their truth is not in line with what you seem to want.

m.facebook.com/PrideinLondon/photos/a.593863833973207/6390371984322334/?type=3&source=57[/quote]
The comments on that post are a beautiful, beautiful thing.

Indeed! Like how the judge was “surprised” at some of what the ONS had said/done in the case about the census - successfully won by the fabulous Fair Play for Women.

Yup. Same with the Tavistock case, and IIRC, the MoJ one.

There's plenty of 'surprise' when this stuff hits the courts, isn't there?

@cakedays

*Validation is actually a normal part of life as a social species. The very reason you are expressing your opinion on this forum is that you seek validation. It's OK - it's normal. "Well I don't care who thinks I'm "valid" as a lesbian" You might if there were people trying to make it so that you couldn't marry your partner for example because they don't think that your sexual orientation is valid.*

How old are you, Shizuku? Because unless you're quite young, you're surely able to remember a time when 'validation' did not get used in that way. Very recently, in fact! You know perfectly well it's used to mean emotional or identity affirmation. Feelings. Worth as a person.

I'm not exactly ancient (early forties), but when I was young people didn't expect others to be constantly "validating" them all the time. The idea was that you were someone with a self and self-esteem, you might even think of yourself as having an 'identity', but that it wasn't anyone else's job to be going about constantly reflecting your feeling and self-esteem back at you. That sounds in fact pretty needy and neurotic, requiring everyone around you to be always "validating" you.

When I was a teenage lesbian, I wanted rights and representation, but it would have astonished me that it was other people's business to be "validating" me all the time. What happened to developing a strong sense of self, purpose and character? Yes, people need social affirmation, solidarity and recognition; but the idea that people must constantly be emotionally "validated" in their "identity" is a very recent formulation. (I don't believe in "identity" either, by the way - at least, not in the way you think of it.)

Also - I'm not expressing my opinion on this forum to seek emotional validation - I'm engaging in rhetorical and intellectual argument. That isn't anything to do with affirming feelings or identities (though there's a tendency more and more for people to mistake that it is). Intellectual argument is rational. For me, this means feelings and validation are not involved. I'm engaging in debate, not therapy. Sure, you can feel differently; but don't assume that people's challenges to your concepts and ideas are necessarily based in either identity or emotion.

Thanks for that post. I’m in my early 40s too and when I was young the message was all about being true to yourself, standing up for what you believe in, finding your own authentic path, no matter what others thought of you, and not letting the opposition of others get you down or stop you achieving your goals. I mean, that message has problems too, but at least it stands a chance of building some resilience in the face of opposition. And fostering understanding and tolerance that others may think differently from you, even in ways that you find difficult or personally offensive, and that’s normal and ok.

@Shizuku

So, returning to the theme of the thread, this is a shout out to all my fellow lesbians on lesbian visibility week, including the ones who happen to be trans and their partners.

To answer pretty much all the other points - some people consider trans women to be women. If you don't, that's fine - you do you. If you do, and you also happen to be a lesbian, I hope you have a good lesbian visibility week.

If you all think that makes me an evil, goady, narcissistic, homophobic, pernicious (I think someone said pernicious), colonising, appropriator and abuser of women, I think it probably says more about you than it does about me.

Thank you @Shizuku and a belated happy trans day of visibility to you on 31st March.

Was one day not enough for you?

penguinpostcard and countrypunk

Yes the comments are quite fabulous. This is clearly the real opinion overall, when women have an opportunity to speak honestly. And honest they were...

For every woman reading, only enthusiastic consent is consent.

Your “no” is not an invitation to negotiations, and run as far as you can from anyone who thinks it is.

It does not matter why you said no. Maybe you didn’t like their shoes, the way they said tomato, the shape of their shoulders, their taste in music. If you don’t want to shag them, you don’t. Whatever the reason was, is irrelevant. You said no.

Was one day not enough for you

Only 12% of all participants selected “trans woman” and/or “trans man.”

https://www.them.us/story/cis-trans-dating

That's 12% of 958 non trans participants of both sexes who were variously straight, gay, lesbian or bisexual, who were prepared to date either sex of trans people.

It seems to me like there's an issue here with the difference between non trans people's stated beliefs that TWAW and TMAM, and how it all works out in the reality of the dating world.

@StormcloakNord

The nuance of what? Science?

Sorry. It's a joke. I'm always reading about nuance - it was referenced upthread by our OP. Let's just say I'm kind of nuanced out on this subject.

Speaking of Allison's case earlier, I hope to fucking God that it's filmed so I can see the judges ''surprise'' as the new definition of lesbian that actually includes everyone is explained to them.

Just in case anyone hadn't realised - the reason it's been rescheduled is to find a big enough timeslot.

It's been allocated 20 days. Four weeks!

The judges are going to be in for quite a ride. This isn't the brief intensive shock therapy, this the full immersive course.

[quote blackwhiteandstripey]@Shizuku

If transwomen have always been female then what does the word "cis" mean?

And for that matter, what does the word "trans" mean?

Getting to grips with this would really help me in my job as an interpreter. [/quote]
Yes, I’d like to understand that as well. It would be very helpful to have the trans-approved language for what it is about a trans woman leads her to realise she is a trans woman and not a cis* woman.

And vice versa of course...I’m pretty sure I’m a woman but how do I know I’m not a trans woman? If someone said I was how could I prove otherwise?

*My apologies to anyone who is offended by the vile, offensive and reductive word “cis”. I’m using it here within the language and context of trans ideology to ask a question that is specific to and therefore can only be answered from within trans ideology.

@Erkrie

penguinpostcard and countrypunk

Yes the comments are quite fabulous. This is clearly the real opinion overall, when women have an opportunity to speak honestly. And honest they were...

It does make you wonder why so much effort is concentrated on trying to correct the good women of FWR when there are clearly so many more women waiting in the wings, all saying the exact same thing.

Just in case anyone hadn't realised - the reason it's been rescheduled is to find a big enough timeslot.

It's been allocated 20 days. Four weeks!

The judges are going to be in for quite a ride. This isn't the brief intensive shock therapy, this the full immersive course.

Wow

I wonder which doctor is going to be called in court to explain a female body and how it differs from a male body, or a surgically altered body.
Will they the call a Churchman to explain, as well.

@AdHominemNonSequitur

Genital preferences are not transphobic. So rules Shizuku. But lots of lesbians here have an exclusive 'preference' for a partner with a vagina. They would like a word that describes someone with an exclusive and permeant preference for a partner with a vagina. Lesbian used to work well. If a new word was adopted, would you then stop trying to join this group? No of course not. That was tried (half jokingly) with the super lesbian thing. Guess what. It was called out as transphobic.

It does beg the question why, if everyone’s kinks are accepted and welcome under the Q umbrella, this weird little genital preference some of us have is not being embraced and celebrated alongside the dog-guys on chains and the adult babies?

can only be answered from within trans ideology.
If only they could...

Now I am truly confused.

You can be born female and a trans woman?
I now have no clue about the interaction between a gender I don’t believe in and biology .

I never really felt like a woman (always played with boys etc) until Inhad children. Am I maybe a trans woman?

It does beg the question why, if everyone’s kinks are accepted and welcome under the Q umbrella, this weird little genital preference some of us have is not being embraced and celebrated alongside the dog-guys on chains and the adult babies?

It really does!