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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Lesbian Visibility Week

999 replies

Shizuku · 27/04/2021 11:40

Shout out to my fellow lesbians on this important week!

I will be wearing my lesbian pride badge right next to my trans pride badge for the whole week in all public spaces.

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NotTerfNorCis · 29/04/2021 18:50

Exactly. Which is why no one has to agree with your own world and mind either.

That sounds like a free speech argument. Do you stand with Maya?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 29/04/2021 18:51

I think "a lesbian is anyone who identifies as a lesbian". Which of course makes the term untranslatable, because there won't be anyone who identifies as a "lesbian" in another language.

There's no way of translating a circular-reference identity.

No. That's a feature of gender identity ideology, not a bug.

Justhadathought · 29/04/2021 18:51

You know she doesn't owe you an answer on who she is as a transgender lesbian? Right

Of course, until one starts trying to enforce one's particular view or interpretation onto others. I'm not sure why anyone would expect to engage in contentious discussion on a forum of long time women's activists, and lesbians, and think that they might not be challenged at every turn. do you realise how hard women and lesbians have had to fight for what they have?

It is really only when one group seeks to colonise the spaces of another discrete group that the contention begins. Best solution: find your own spaces.

ASugarr · 29/04/2021 18:51

@NotTerfNorCis

Exactly. Which is why no one has to agree with your own world and mind either.

That sounds like a free speech argument. Do you stand with Maya?

No. Of course not.
KittyValentine · 29/04/2021 18:52

@HamsterV2

So there's another difference between women and transwomen: transwomen are allowed to say whatever they want even if women dislike it, whilst women must use trans-approved language.

Transwomen who stand with women get censured too, when criticising TRAs or their ridiculous statements. I've been deleted a couple of times today and have been deleted in the past for saying contraversial things stating facts. Confused

Hamster thank you for your voice on this thread. Flowers

It is much appreciated!

I hope you enjoyed your rum & raisin ice cream!

Shizuku · 29/04/2021 18:53

@cakedays

Christ I hate the word "valid". You "validate" tickets, not people. How it came to be a term that is thought of as gloriously empowering, I don't know. The first time I ever heard it used in that way was satirical, when Lisa in the Simpsons keeps crying "validate me! Validate me!" It used to sound silly. Now we're all supposed to think it's essential to a happy life. How did that happen? I'm valid this lesbian visibility week, everyone! Well I don't care who thinks I'm "valid" as a lesbian as long as my rights and freedoms to be same-sex attracted are protected in law.
Well, lets see if I can get through a few of these.

Validation is actually a normal part of life as a social species. The very reason you are expressing your opinion on this forum is that you seek validation. It's OK - it's normal.

"Well I don't care who thinks I'm "valid" as a lesbian"

You might if there were people trying to make it so that you couldn't marry your partner for example because they don't think that your sexual orientation is valid.

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Shizuku · 29/04/2021 18:55

[quote SunsetBeetch]**@asugarr* @shizuku*

Can lesbian sex involve penises? Your thoughts?[/quote]
Yes.

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HamsterV2 · 29/04/2021 18:55

@Helleofabore - Well, if Hamster as a trans person cannot ask questions, who can?

Because TRAs absolute hate trans people who (a) question the TRA narrative, (b) will stand up for/stand with women, and (c) support a biological reality.

That's why we get called all kinds of nasty things on social media, because we're grounded in reality and not fuzzy gender-feelz. Quislings, traitors, scum etc etc

Blibbyblobby · 29/04/2021 18:55

@Sophoclesthefox

I have a feeling it won’t work like that, necessary.

I am going to conclude that we feminist-friendly types are just better with the language, then, and do not need to resort to language that others find distressing in order to get our points across. How disappointing that others can’t similarly raise their standards.

Indeed.

I also think we have the advantage because no matter how much the language is mangled and no matter ones immersion in post modern thought, to the degree that physical reality exists outside language and can be perceived without language, there will always be a way to use language to speak about it. It pokes through because people do perceive it, so they and find ways to express it that others recognise.

There is a concept in software of "leaky abstraction" where despite the programmer's effort in creating an abstract (generic) solution to a problem, the real world details tend to crept back in.

"a detail of the underlying complexity cannot be ignored, thus leaking complexity out of the abstraction back into the software that uses the abstraction" en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leaky_abstraction

We see it all the time in trans ideology. The entire concept of Trans is based on the reality of differently sexed bodies. All those rights and spaces they demand access to based on gender only exist because of sex. It's the ultimate leaky abstraction.

So it's the ideologues who are in the weak position. ALL they have is words and their leaky abstraction. That's why they must apply their political and social engineering to police language so strongly, because there is no foundation of reality behind it.

That's why I try to adopt the language of the ideologues when I challenge their ideology, because I'm confident there will always be a way to express my truth no matter how they twist the words and it takes away their power to dismiss me because of my words and not my arguments.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 29/04/2021 18:56

I've just been re-reading the great article about lesbian visibility that was linked up thread by OhHolyJesus.

andrewsullivan.substack.com/p/where-have-all-the-lesbians-gone-0a7

Here are some particularly heartbreaking quotes.

"But there’s something else going on right now, because it’s not just lesbian bars that are disappearing; it’s lesbian as a category itself.

"After Portland’s last lesbian bar closed in 2010, as Ellena Rosenthal explored in the Willamette Week, there were attempts to start lesbian-specific nights at various venues, but most avoided the L-word to appear inclusive of trans and nonbinary people. One event, called Temporary Lesbian Bar, apologized after being accused of condoning “trans women exterminationism” for using the labrys — a double-headed ax that symbolizes female strength and has long been a part of lesbian iconography — in their logo. That event still exists (or did before Covid), but the organizers make sure to advertise that, despite the name, it’s “open, inclusive, and welcoming to all people.” (Oddly, these fights only seem to occur around women’s space, not men’s. If gay bars, bathhouses, and clubs go extinct, it will be because of Covid, not because of infighting over inclusion.)

"Portland may be a parody of PC, but it’s not an outlier. When I came out in North Carolina in the early 2000s, the term “lesbian” was fading and “queer” was rapidly rising. Most of my peers saw lesbians as stodgy, old-fashioned, and uncool, whereas queers were hip, edgy, and inclusive. Yet “queer” is vague enough to mean nearly anything, so the label says less about your love life and more about your politics. (I propose we all start using the Kinsey Scale instead.)

"The flight from “lesbian” has accelerated since. An academic in the Southeast, who asked to remain anonymous, told me that when she mentioned to a colleague that she’s a lesbian, the colleague “reacted like I’d confessed to being a Confederate Lost-Causer. She told me that the term is outdated and problematic, and I shouldn’t use it.” So the lesbian keeps quiet about her identity: “It’s like living in a second closet.”

"Not long ago, it would have been the Christian right stigmatizing homosexual women. Today, it’s also from people who call themselves queer."

[...]

"There’s been no clear polling on the shift from “lesbian” to “nonbinary,” and so my sense that the lesbian is endangered is purely anecdotal. But there are plenty of anecdotes. After I put out a call on Twitter asking lesbians for input, my inbox filled with emails from women who said vast portions of their friend groups have adopted new labels and pronouns. But none feel like they can openly discuss it, which is apparent by the number who asked to remain anonymous: all of them.

“Lesbians are pretty thin on the ground for Gen Z,” a student I’ll call Halle wrote me. “I have one other lesbian friend, and together we have collected reports of five other lesbians between the U.S. and Canada, of which three are in our generation…. I do not know how things were in olden times for the elder gays, so I admit that a paucity of lesbian friends may in fact be normal for twentysomething gay women in left coast liberal cities, but I like to imagine there was some Arcadian past where short-haired women in Carhartts could gather in groups greater than two.”

"Halle doesn’t live in Tehran. She lives in Seattle. Another young lesbian I spoke to told me she used to identify as both nonbinary and trans. “There’s a really thriving, active online and in-person trans community and queer community,” she said, “but there’s hardly anything for lesbians, and if you try to create that, you get pushback. It’s not cool to be a lesbian in the same way that it’s cool to be queer or trans or nonbinary.”

NotTerfNorCis · 29/04/2021 18:57

No. Of course not.

But surely if everyone is free to have an opinion and to disagree with other people's opinions, her views are as valid as anyone else's.

Shizuku · 29/04/2021 18:57

@AbsintheFriends

I thought we had a term for people whose sexual orientation encompassed trans people, regardless of genitalia and gender identity?

Is pansexual not a Thing anymore?

Pansexual means that you can be attracted to people regardless of their sex, so it would encompass non binary people and people who had a mixture of sex characteristics.
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ASugarr · 29/04/2021 18:57

@NotTerfNorCis

No. Of course not.

But surely if everyone is free to have an opinion and to disagree with other people's opinions, her views are as valid as anyone else's.

So you think someone can say what they want in the workplace? People can be sexist, racist and more? That's an awful thing to think.
Blibbyblobby · 29/04/2021 18:58

"Well I don't care who thinks I'm "valid" as a lesbian"

You might if there were people trying to make it so that you couldn't marry your partner for example because they don't think that your sexual orientation is valid.

Which combinations of two consenting, unmarried adult people cannot marry in the UK?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 29/04/2021 18:59

So it's the ideologues who are in the weak position. ALL they have is words and their leaky abstraction. That's why they must apply their political and social engineering to police language so strongly, because there is no foundation of reality behind it.

That's why I try to adopt the language of the ideologues when I challenge their ideology, because I'm confident there will always be a way to express my truth no matter how they twist the words and it takes away their power to dismiss me because of my words and not my arguments.

Some very interesting points. But sometimes I think it's very challenging within the confines of the ideological language, and it does fluster people.

Letsgetreadytocrumble · 29/04/2021 19:00

Can lesbian sex involve penises? Your thoughts?

Yes.

Says who?

ASugarr · 29/04/2021 19:01

@Letsgetreadytocrumble

Can lesbian sex involve penises? Your thoughts?

Yes.

Says who?

Says many lesbians and people.
Letsgetreadytocrumble · 29/04/2021 19:02

Says many lesbians and people.

People! Grin

Letsgetreadytocrumble · 29/04/2021 19:03

The earth is flat and I know this is true because people say it is 😂

WhoNeedsaManOfTheWorld · 29/04/2021 19:04

One thing never changes, males support males
I have never seen a TW make a statement or campaign for anything that would improve the lives of females. They work to improve things for other TW and push women out further
Which makes it even more pathetic that women trip up over themselves to centre these males
They need to engage their critical thinking skills

NotTerfNorCis · 29/04/2021 19:04

So you think someone can say what they want in the workplace?

I was asking what you think. Either you recognise the right of people to their own opinions, or you don't.

Two things about your comment. First off, Maya hadn't said anything 'in the workplace'. Secondly, Maya was not abusive anywhere, including online. Her views are factual and mainstream. It's shocking that statements of fact should have become unsayable.

yourhairiswinterfire · 29/04/2021 19:04

So you think someone can say what they want in the workplace? People can be sexist, racist and more? That's an awful thing to think.

That's an awful take. Not what the case was about. At all. Did you follow it?

ASugarr · 29/04/2021 19:05

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Scepticaltank · 29/04/2021 19:05

People Visibility Week!

A Room of Her Own

The Lesbian Dating App That Wants to T the Gay Away

savageminds.substack.com/p/a-room-of-her-own?r=7vbcm&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web&utm_source=copy

Sophoclesthefox · 29/04/2021 19:05

I am unsurprised that the pages and pages of horrible lesbophobia and aggressive rhetoric linked upthread have passed utterly unremarked by “trans friendly” voices on this thread.

I’m not going to link to them again, because I find them genuinely distressing and would not wish lesbians on the thread to be subject to seeing them appear repeatedly.

The concept of “leaky abstraction” makes sense, blibby. And also explains the vehemence that has to be brought to bear to try to stop it - no debate etc.

I do think that people so adamantly standing against Maya might want to consider what happened to Robespierre (look him up if you don’t know). “ True religion consists in punishing for the happiness of all, those who disturb society." Food for thought.

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