Trans lesbian?

[Timeforatincture]

My first ever post on this board. Long time reader, and have found it highly educational. Thank you everyone.

There is a pullout in today's Guardian about influential lesbians. Cameos and longer pieces. One of the longer pieces is an interview with a "trans lesbian."

AIBUin thinking that's a bit odd?

@speakout

Maybe this whole debate shows a new term or phrase or name should be coined for trans women who are attracted to women, so their can be no confusion, hurt or upset?

Yes as said previously- heterosexual men.

But they don't identify as male so that's incorrect.

you're putting a huge amount of words into my mouth there, and I'm not really a fan - it's bit gaslighty isn't it?

No but that sounds like you are trying to bulky me into silence. You said above that you don't know of lesbians being told they must dates trans women, because that would be as ridiculous as telling a woman she has to date any man, that's interested just because she is straight.

I pointed out that happened, you said you were shocked and surprised IF that's happens.

Its a huge women's issue. But you seem to not know anything about it.

Several people have said their lesbian teen daughters are facing, being excluded from lbgtq places, because they won't date biological men. Other lesbian posters are telling you, they are aware of this issue. Again, you said it would be ridiculous if that happened. And yet it does. But you aren't aware of it.

You said that lesbian spaces can't remain open unless they allow biological males in, because they can't financially keep it a float. It seems to you a lesbian space is only lesbian bars, which could have tons of reasons for not staying open.

So which bit, did I put words in your mouth?

If you aren't familiar with any of these big issues that impact women, you aren't very well connected with real life.

@BigBWatching

I have two trans male friends and they're both in relationships with women. They don't consider themselves lesbians because they don't consider themselves women any longer. This is why I think I struggle with the logic on this thread as it would suggest they should call themselves lesbians. But I appreciate the struggle that some of you and your loved ones have been through which is why you feel as you do.

But they are lesbians though, it’s a shame they don’t want to identify as such but biological females exclusively same sex attracted are lesbians. 🤷‍♀️

I don't think it's for you or anyone else to say how they should identify though.

I understand the concern of trans people and their supporters if they've been pressuring lesbian women or gay men to accept dates with them, but I don't think anyone should tell them what they should or should not identify as.

Like I said a new name probably needs to be coined to meet the needs of trans woman attracted to women and trans men attracted to men and trans people of either sex who want to be in what outwardly looks like an heterosexual couple. However no one has the right to tell them how they should identify. No one.

*MrsNewms85

But they don't identify as male so that's incorrect.*

That's the crux though isnt it.
I could identify as a black 6'4" Danish male architect with a PhD in neuroscience.
Is all that accurate?

But they don't identify as male so that's incorrect.

Male isn't an identity though. This is where the issue lies. You are either male or you aren't. Transwomen are.

MrsNewms85

I don't think it's for you or anyone else to say how they should identify though.

So I can identify as a black person?

Clarice99

Seriously? All the prejudice on this thread and you call me out? Transphobic is not a slur nor is it a name. It's a fact. If you're offended by it then maybe you should ask yourself why.

@speakout

*MrsNewms85

But they don't identify as male so that's incorrect.*

That's the crux though isnt it.
I could identify as a black 6'4" Danish male architect with a PhD in neuroscience.
Is all that accurate?

I don't know you, so I wouldn't be able to confirm either way 😂

My point is, it is wrong to tell a trans person that they should identify as their previous sex, the thing that many of them changed about themselves and went through a great deal to get to.

@sunavendi you're right there is so much prejudice on this thread and it makes me so sad to see it.

But they can identify how they please it doesn’t change the reality, they are females who for whatever reason choose to present as men, however as lesbian is defined as same SEX attraction then that is what they are, regardless of what they wear or how they act.

@GrownUpBeans

Why can't people on here just let people live and be who they are?

Because some trans people are not willing to extend this principle to others. Biological sex, gender identity and surgery are all factors that can effect who a person is sexually attracted to. Let each person decide for themselves what works for them.

Let each person decide for themselves what works for them.

Is that not what I'm saying? And why should the actions of "some" mean that everyone else suffers because of it. Should we not let all black people be who they are become of "some" of them? Gay people? Indigenous people?

However no one has the right to tell them how they should identify. No one.

You must certainly can call them out if they are appropriating the name of another marginalised group with whom they have nothing in common

@speakout

MrsNewms85

I don't think it's for you or anyone else to say how they should identify though.

So I can identify as a black person?

It's not the same is it? Educate yourself, you sound foolish.

@334bu

*However no one has the right to tell them how they should identify. No one.*

You must certainly can call them out if they are appropriating the name of another marginalised group with whom they have nothing in common

Nobody denied this. That's not what has happened here?

[quote MrsNewms85]@sunavendi you're right there is so much prejudice on this thread and it makes me so sad to see it.[/quote]
It makes me sick honestly.

@sunavendi you're right there is so much prejudice on this thread and it makes me so sad to see it.*

It makes me sick honestly.

The blatant homophobia on this thread is having a similar effect on me.

All this effort to deny sex. It's unbelievable. A lesbian is a woman who fancies her own sex. That's the end of it.

And yes, if anyone can show me a lesbian only dating app that excludes males, then go ahead and do it.

I am perfectly willing to understand that older lesbians, in a relationship, or with an established network, may not see the problem.

But young women today will operate almost exclusively online in terms of dating. And they are absolutely vilified for not including males in their dating pool.

It's undeniable.

Just look at all the shit that the LGB alliance has had to put up with. Because, a certain section of society do not want lesbians and gay men to have a space of their own. I don't even know why are you arguing differently!

MrsNewms85
I don't know you, so I wouldn't be able to confirm either way

But surely you don't need any confirmation- my self ID is enough .

My point is, it is wrong to tell a trans person that they should identify as their previous sex, the thing that many of them changed about themselves and went through a great deal to get to.

Sex can't be changed. Our chromosomes are present in every cell in our body. XX or XY remains the same. Dress, clothing, surgery, hormones won't change that.

@Trevsadick, there are several times when you have misrepresented me, but instead of copying and pasting them all down I'll stick with one from your last post "You said that lesbian spaces can't remain open unless they allow biological males in".

I'll tell you what I see happening - a rich narrative developing in online fora that becomes a world in its own right, fuelled with characters and battles, us vs them, believable and enticing. Perhaps the way people live nowadays, behind screens so much, this is a reality in its own right.

In person, face-to-face, what I see if that these worlds do not exist in the same way - the conflict and division does not dominate because people aren't single-issue keyboard warriors any more, they're ordinary complex people interacting with other ordinary complex people in a largely harmonious and supportive manner.

My point is, it is wrong to tell a trans person that they should identify as their previous sex, the thing that many of them changed about themselves and went through a great deal to get to.

You do know that sex and gender are different, right?

It's very illuminating that this is all about gender, but suddenly all the rights have to be ceded based on sex.

The word lesbian is taken. It already has a definition. And, furthermore, it is enshrined in law.

[quote suggestionsplease1]@Trevsadick, there are several times when you have misrepresented me, but instead of copying and pasting them all down I'll stick with one from your last post "You said that lesbian spaces can't remain open unless they allow biological males in".

I'll tell you what I see happening - a rich narrative developing in online fora that becomes a world in its own right, fuelled with characters and battles, us vs them, believable and enticing. Perhaps the way people live nowadays, behind screens so much, this is a reality in its own right.

In person, face-to-face, what I see if that these worlds do not exist in the same way - the conflict and division does not dominate because people aren't single-issue keyboard warriors any more, they're ordinary complex people interacting with other ordinary complex people in a largely harmonious and supportive manner.[/quote]
So does that mean you agree that lesbian is a sex-based orientation, or not?

The word lesbian is taken. It already has a definition. And, furthermore, it is enshrined in law

Moreover denial of the above is hate. Take your hateful homophobia elsewhere.

@334bu

*The word lesbian is taken. It already has a definition. And, furthermore, it is enshrined in law*

Moreover denial of the above is hate. Take your hateful homophobia elsewhere.

Plus it is discriminatory. A court has just ruled that the view that sex exists and is 'important' is a protected characteristic.

Amazing how many people want to dismantle the equality act.

Seriously? All the prejudice on this thread and you call me out? Transphobic is not a slur nor is it a name. It's a fact. If you're offended by it then maybe you should ask yourself why.

I believe in fact - biological sex. I don't buy into ideologies.

Ironic that you should call 'transphobia' when homophobia is rife on this thread. Maybe you ought to ask yourself why.

@334bu

*And yet there are lesbians who are quite happily dating trans lesbians. Because some individuals happen to be attracted to other individuals.* I think you mean bisexuals as they are dating a member of the opposite sex.

So straight women would find themselves attracted to a trans woman? Who for all intents and purposely, aside from biologically, is a woman?