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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Trans lesbian?

703 replies

Timeforatincture · 26/04/2021 18:39

My first ever post on this board. Long time reader, and have found it highly educational. Thank you everyone.

There is a pullout in today's Guardian about influential lesbians. Cameos and longer pieces. One of the longer pieces is an interview with a "trans lesbian."

AIBUin thinking that's a bit odd?

OP posts:
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6
TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 20/06/2021 15:00

@Erikrie

But, when it comes to words and language specific to women, all of a sudden new words aren't possible, only changing the definition of words such as woman and lesbian to include males will do.

They needs our words for their validation. I will not be giving up my words or validating. My beliefs are rooted in fact, not woo.

Also seconding this from both Justcameout and Erikrie.
Datun · 20/06/2021 15:04

Pretending that sexual orientation is based on an internal feeling, that no one can see, identify, or verify, leads directly to young people being bullied and vilified for being gay.

Homosexuality is based on sex. And yet our youngsters are now often being told that if they are, for instance a lesbian, they're very likely a man. Because the very concept of lesbianism is been targeted, and is losing its integrity.

Young lesbians face being targeted by males in any erstwhile female space where they try and explore their sexuality. If they try and maintain their sexuality and boundaries, they are often thrown out of the space.

Clinicians at the Tavistock are so concerned, they are testifying in Sonia Appleby's case about systematic safeguarding failure.

They have testified that children's sexuality, is being completely ignored, as is the trauma they are suffering from being targeted over it.

So, as long as people keep telling me that males can be lesbians, I'm going to keep exposing their homophobia and misogyny.

Trans lesbian?
Erikrie · 20/06/2021 15:22

Bizarre trans activists think there's some kind of debate when they're trying to take things they don't own. Imagine trying to tell someone that you have shared ownership of their house, or their car, or their children. And they think there's some kind of debate about this. There isn't. The word woman and lesbian are womens words. There's no right for men to share this word and apply it to themselves. They have their own words. Our words are not for sale. They're not being given away for free. No one has the right to take our words and give them to someone else. And there's no desire, need or intention to share our words with anyone who is not a woman. #No debate.

Flapjak · 20/06/2021 15:49

Heres a question
a)How many straight women on here ever been sexually harassed by a lesbian?
b)how many women (bi/straight/lesbian) been harrassed by a male
c)how many lesbians have been sexually harassed by a transwoman who claims to be a lesbian

I would guess very few to a)
Most women to b)
And c) many more than a)

Male pattern behaviour doesnt change with a change of prononuns and trousers for skirts

TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 20/06/2021 15:54

I entirely agree, Erikrie.

What trans activists are engaged in is the structural abuse of women and girls, with lesbians targeted in a very particular way.

Also of GNC children, many of whom will be gay.

There is or should be no debate to be had on what level of abuse of women/girls/lesbians/gnc children is acceptable.

The only answer is none, none at all. Or it should be. Would be, if we lived in a world where the values of safeguarding and true EDI were genuinely respected. If what is in our society actually matched what it says on the tin.

DonnieDark · 20/06/2021 18:48

@SapphosRock

It seems most posters on here are unaware of the types of people who now dominate lesbian groups. These are typical members and a typical response to anyone who challenges them being there.

Do you think this is fair on lesbians? Do you think lesbians need and deserve any safe spaces without having to validate males? Do you think the threat of violence (in this case anal rape) makes a lot of lesbians scared to speak up?

It's a really shitty situation tbh made a lot worse by straight women who insist there are no problems at all with anyone identifying as a lesbian.

Please show a bit of sisterhood and support lesbians getting our spaces back rather than calling us bigots for wanting them.

Thank you.

Oh god I know one of those people and they openly told me when I very first met them about how they'd used prostitutes 🤢
NiceGerbil · 20/06/2021 18:52

How can sexual attraction towards someone you've only just seen, or met, be based on an invisible feeling in their head?

Thelnebriati · 20/06/2021 18:59

[quote Helen8220]@Trevsadick
If you look back up thread you’ll see that the majority of the responses to things I’ve said have been much more along the lines of ‘you’re a homophobe and trans women are men’ without much more.

I’ve explained why the protection afforded by the Equality Act against discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation is in no way undermined by the recognition that trans women can be lesbians.[/quote]
''The UK government defines sex as referring to the biological aspects of an individual as determined by their anatomy, which is produced by their chromosomes, hormones and their interactions.''
www.ons.gov.uk/economy/environmentalaccounts/articles/whatisthedifferencebetweensexandgender/2019-02-21

HTH.

Thelnebriati · 20/06/2021 19:03

The test case that defined 'sex' in UK law is is Corbett vs Corbett.
Gender cannot be defined in law and has no legal status.

NiceGerbil · 20/06/2021 19:28

What do the equalities laws have to do with who people want to fuck?

ANewCreation · 20/06/2021 20:26

The word 'woman' is taken (adult human female). We are not conceding this sex based term to describe the female of the species - used in the same way as mare, sow, hen, doe - to become a gender based term.

The word 'female' is taken (member of the sex class which produces large immotile gametes and has the capacity, in mammals, to bear young).

The word 'lesbian' is taken (female exclusively same sex attracted)

The word 'apple' is taken, the word 'tomato' is taken. Just because they may both look red (or green) and be spherical and have seeds and are fruit and you are fine with both, doesn't mean you can force tomatoes on someone who is allergic to them and insist it's really 'just like' an apple and suggest there is something wrong with her for making a fuss.

Stop it.

The Equality Act 2010 in combination with the GRA gives 'legal' female/male status in most but not all circumstances only to those who hold a GRC (approx 5-6000 people).

There are estimates of 500,000-600,000 trans people in the UK, so roughly half a million plus without a GRC. Without a GRC, they remain their birth sex in law. So the chances of meeting an actual GRC holding 'female'-in-law-with-some-exceptions "lesbian" is less than 1%.

The protected characteristic of gender reassignment was never designed to cover crossdressers.

Here is the Labour peer, Baroness Thornton (and still the Labour peer responsible for Health and Social Care) presenting the Bill to the Lords back in 2010 and explaining precisely who the protected characteristic of gender reassignment - clause 7 - is designed to protect.

"The point I was making is that that is the range of things that could happen for a transsexual person.

However, Clause 7 does not cover transvestites or others who choose temporarily to adopt the appearance of the opposite gender.

While we do not condone anyone being treated badly because of the way in which they present themselves, it would not be appropriate to provide people who present themselves temporarily as of a gender other than their birth gender with the same protection against discrimination that is available to a person with gender dysphoria, who is somebody who has been assigned one gender at birth, but believes that they are of another gender. That is the point—it is what happens to that person that the Bill attempts to address."

Baroness Thornton on Monday 11 January 2010
hansard.parliament.uk/Lords/2010-01-11/debates/10011139000077/EqualityBill?highlight=transvestites#contribution-10011149000003

It is Stonewall who put crossdressers (transvestites) under its trans umbrella alongside and as 'equally trans' as transsexuals.

Stonewall's position of TWAW and TMAM stands in direct contradiction to the intended protection in the EqA for both the protected characteristic of 'sexual orientation' and for 'gender reassignment'.

Can there be an organisation that advocates effectively for both the LGB and the TQ+? Is it impossible to lobby simultaneously for people for whom attraction is solely sex-based and for those whose personal gender identity is the deciding factor?

Surely they need new (maybe portmanteau?) words to describe people who are attracted primarily by gender rather than sex and stop trying to hijack the old ones.

www.theguardian.com/media/mind-your-language/2016/feb/04/english-neologisms-new-words

A couple of males are in a long term relationship. If one announced a new gender identity, would that automatically become a bisexual relationship? And if both, would that then be a lesbian relationship?

Nope. Tomatoes are not and never will be apples...

Helen8220 · 20/06/2021 20:29

@TheInebriati

That’s interesting, thanks. I see paragraph 4 says: “It is important to note that the law in the UK treats the terms sex and gender as interchangeable.” Which suggests that the references in the Equality Act definition of sexual orientation to attraction to the same or the opposite sex could equally refer to gender.

Erikrie · 20/06/2021 20:32

Which suggests that the references in the Equality Act definition of sexual orientation to attraction to the same or the opposite sex could equally refer to gender

You should get yourself a job at stonewall. You'd fit right in there ☺️

SapphosRock · 20/06/2021 20:38

Oh god I know one of those people and they openly told me when I very first met them about how they'd used prostitutes

Oh yuck. I can believe it though. Online lesbian groups are full of wrong'uns, the TRAs become moderators and delete all the female homosexuals who dare disagree with them. It makes it seem like the group members all follow the TRA agenda but IRL lesbians are getting really pissed off with it all.

It's funny isn't it, there seems to be a certain type of lesbian that:

  • uses prostitutes
  • threatens rape
  • gets aroused by wearing fishnet tights and feather boas
  • fetishises lesbian sex
  • transplains lesbianism to women

And it isn't the type that are born female.

NiceGerbil · 20/06/2021 20:42

The argument that everything set up for gay men or lesbians should be open to everyone, even casual Facebook groups etc. Is because of equalities laws?

The fact that changing lesbian to mean anyone who says they are one. Rides roughshod over/ ignores the historical oppression of both gay men and lesbians and the fact that around the world it is still illegal in some countries? And that laws are based on sex...?

So in Iran some gay or lesbian couples, under the new definitions. Would be arrested and some would be fine? So it's not a gay rights issue? Something else then. What? Hard to say.

The fact that a masc presenting transwoman and a lesbian holding hands etc will not invite looks/ abuse/ arrest in the same way two vagina owners can?

NiceGerbil · 20/06/2021 20:43

Oh and the fact that lesbians have been fetished by penis people forever and so being able to enter their groups etc with impunity is obviously going to be appealing to certain types of penis person.

GrownUpBeans · 20/06/2021 23:12

In the Equality Act, does sex mean biological sex or legal sex?

NiceGerbil · 20/06/2021 23:17

It's all a bit of a mess I expect.

I still don't get what the EA has to do with lesbians being told they have to accept males into Facebook groups etc.

NiceGerbil · 20/06/2021 23:18

Or why it means lesbian is anyone who cares to adopt that 'identity'.

DrBlackbird · 20/06/2021 23:24

[quote Helen8220]@TheInebriati

That’s interesting, thanks. I see paragraph 4 says: “It is important to note that the law in the UK treats the terms sex and gender as interchangeable.” Which suggests that the references in the Equality Act definition of sexual orientation to attraction to the same or the opposite sex could equally refer to gender.[/quote]
TheInebriati references:
www.ons.gov.uk/economy/environmentalaccounts/articles/whatisthedifferencebetweensexandgender/2019-02-21

I'm not seeing what you see with that sentence you quote from this document. Rather, it's stating that....

Sex and gender are terms that are often used interchangeably but they are in fact two different concepts, even though for many people their sex and gender are the same. This article will clarify the differences between sex and gender and why these differences are important to understand, especially in research and data collection.

And...

Sex and gender are different concepts that are often used interchangeably. The UK government refers to sex as being biologically defined, and gender as a social construct that is an internal sense of self, whether an individual sees themselves as a man or a woman, or another gender identity.

If they mean different concepts, then they can't be interchangeable...

Heidi1982 · 20/06/2021 23:24

@GrownUpBeans

In the Equality Act, does sex mean biological sex or legal sex?
Both.

But there are only c.5000 people with a legal sex that is different to their birth sex.

GrownUpBeans · 20/06/2021 23:26

I still don't get what the EA has to do with lesbians being told they have to accept males into Facebook groups etc.

Me neither. Unless sex means legal sex so they have to accept those with GRCs? But from reading this thread, it seems lesbians are being told they have to include anyone who identifies as female.

GrownUpBeans · 20/06/2021 23:29

Both.

But there are only c.5000 people with a legal sex that is different to their birth sex.

So a person's sexual orientation for the purposes of the Equality Act can be dependent on whether they have a GRC?

eg transwoman with GRC attracted to women - homosexual
transwoman without GRC attracted to women - heterosexual
transwomen attracted to women and transwomen - bisexual.

NiceGerbil · 20/06/2021 23:42

But casual groups don't need to adhere to the EA surely.

Otherwise if I was going out to the pub with a female group of friends that I wanted to be female friends only, (which I personally don't go in for but I know lots of women do) and a chap wanted to come then the idea is you can't say no because sex discrimination in the EA.

I'm pretty sure that's not how it works.

GrownUpBeans · 20/06/2021 23:46

The EA applies to 'associations' I think. So it doesn't apply to casual groups. Not quite sure where the line is drawn.

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