Trans lesbian?

[Timeforatincture]

My first ever post on this board. Long time reader, and have found it highly educational. Thank you everyone.

There is a pullout in today's Guardian about influential lesbians. Cameos and longer pieces. One of the longer pieces is an interview with a "trans lesbian."

AIBUin thinking that's a bit odd?

When I posted making a parallel that a gay woman asking a straight woman out is comparable to a male bodied trans lesbian IDing person asking a lesbian out I was told that this was not a viable comparison because male bodied people pose more danger to women.

That's not the main reason it isn't a viable comparison.

Unless those lesbians are insisting that their advances must be considered because they are, in fact, men - because they say so - then no, it's not the same thing.

Exactly.

If you'd stop making irrational, unscientific, homophobia and misogynistic assertions based on gender ideology then us lesbians and lesbian allies could stop pointing out the obvious to you — transwomen are men. When you stop, we'll stop.

Ok, so I guess we’ll all just sit in our opposing camps agreeing with our allies about how stupid and hateful and prejudiced the other side are. Because that’s generally how progress and reconciliation are achieved.

Look! A squirrel!

Topic of the thread is male born people identifying as lesbians. Not violent lesbians, not straight women being propositioned by lesbians.

We’re talking about varieties of male sexual entitlement. Some people don’t like talking about that.

Indeed they don't.

This isn’t a discussion, it’s mostly just a thread of people repeating over and over ‘trans women are men’, ‘lesbians are same sex attracted and can’t be attracted to trans women’, like some kind of mantra. And ‘disagreeing’ is not the same as ‘silencing’.

That's not the discussion though. People posting are telling you why it's damaging to them and the response are;

Lesbians can't keep lesbian bars open
Lesbians relationships have violence in them
Women are never expected to date or give attention to men
Lesbians are as dangerous to women as men are
Lesbians approach straight women sometimes
No, the legal definition doesn't matter
Bi women aren't accepted by some lesbians
But the poor transwomen, I feel so bad for them. Lesbians who won't accept them are bigots.

And completely ignoring the fact that people are giving you real reasons why its damaging. No one has just said 'transwomen are men'.

However, given the legal protected status of lesbians, the fact that transwomen are biologically men, should be enough. But its not, so you have been given clear reasons why.

What "reconciliation" compromise are you suggesting, Helen?

Ok, so I guess we’ll all just sit in our opposing camps agreeing with our allies about how stupid and hateful and prejudiced the other side are. Because that’s generally how progress and reconciliation are achieved

And how do you see reconciliation?

Agreeing with the illogical idea that men can be women?
Letting men who identify as women into sex segregated spaces where women are vulnerable? Changing rooms, hospital wards, prisons, women's refuges?
Letting men who identify as women play against women in elite sport?
Agreeing that men who identify as women are now women, even though lesbians are same sex attracted?

If this is your idea of conciliation then I'm not interested. I'll just keep fighting and donating to ensure sex based rights up upheld.

@Ereshkigalangcleg @Erikrie
If I had an easy solution to this whole sorry mess, which has been dragging on for years, I would have mentioned it before now.

But the first step to finding some common ground has to be open, good faith, courteous discussion, rather than just throwing insults back and forward.

Redefining the word lesbian to include men is not a compromise though is it? It’s removing same sex attracted adult females right to define themselves to keep men happy

@Trevsadick
If you look back up thread you’ll see that the majority of the responses to things I’ve said have been much more along the lines of ‘you’re a homophobe and trans women are men’ without much more.

I’ve explained why the protection afforded by the Equality Act against discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation is in no way undermined by the recognition that trans women can be lesbians.

Is this a subconscious acknowledgement that male transwomen are not really female?? DRAG

Lol. Gender, what a drag? Yes it is drag. A performance. Fake. Not based in reality. Glad that's been acknowledged anyway.

Completely agree gender is largely a performance. In some cases - like drag queens and drag kings - it’s an entirely conscious and knowing performance. For most of us it’s more of an everyday performance, that we aren’t necessarily entirely aware of, or have an active choice about.

Facts aren't insults. I know TRAs don't like inconvenient facts though. Although plenty of abuse has come from the tra position. Things like, hmm, suck my girl dick, beat up a terf, die in a grease fire, you know, threats of violence to women. The usual. Hardly surprising that women say no to making room for them really is it. ☺️

no way undermined by the recognition that trans women can be lesbians.

They're not lesbians.

What insults have been thrown? Please list them.

I think the lesbians here have been very polite given that we've been told we can't define the word lesbian, that we need to compromise and accept male-sexed people as female-sexed people and that we're so mean when we say no that it makes you sad.

The transallies on this thread have exhibited classic coercive behaviour. Lesbians here say no, just no — and give good reason why they are saying no and why they are legally entitled to say no.

The trans allies say 'But that's mean and nasty of you makes me very sad. Shame on you, lesbians, you need to compromise.'

We know what compromise looks like. We're living with it at the moment and we don't like it and we're saying enough.

I’ve explained why the protection afforded by the Equality Act against discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation is in no way undermined by the recognition that trans women can be lesbians.

No you haven't though.

And where you think you have, people have rebutted it.

There is no compromise. And no sitting in opposite corners, because your corner wants to continue doing something that is harming the other group.

The fact that categories of sexual orientation are arbitrary…

Just to go back a few steps… Helen, what you said here ISN’T a fact. It’s a complete untruth, in fact.

There is nothing arbitrary about classifying sexual orientation on the basis of which sex you’re attracted to, any more than there’s anything arbitrary about classifying humans in terms of their sex/reproductive capacity.

There are real and immutable differences between the sexes. And for most people, their sexual orientation is equally real and immutable and is based on those real and immutable differences between the sexes.

Trying to claim otherwise, as you are doing, is what’s grossly offensive and homophobic: suggesting that only being attracted to people of one sex is as arbitrary as a preference for one hair colour is just ludicrous.

You are denying the reality of the world we live in. It matters when you deny the real difference between the sexes because of the huge power imbalance between the sexes, both in terms of physiology and in terms of the social power that has accrued to men over millennia of patriarchy. Which we cannot try to combat if we don’t recognise it to start with.

It matters when you deny the reality of sexual orientation based on sex because that’s what men and women have been discriminated against and persecuted for across cultures, across the centuries. The idea that people have historically been persecuted for being “same gender” attracted is just arrant nonsense.

I don’t see any attempt at a civilised, respectful discussion from you. Just lies, misogyny and homophobia.

Absolutely no compromise. Women's definitions are not up for grabs.

Or to coin an old favourite that the TRAs know well: #nodebate

Why would we even consider going through the process of redefining these labels, because a small amount of men, wish to change and live and a woman and want to called a lesbian?

Why on earth should everyone move over, accept a change in the definition of the word lesbian, because someone who isn't a lesbian wants to use the label.

Why isn't the compromise to say 'actually, you aren't a lesbian, you need a new term that fit. You, then, need to then fight for it to have the protections and meanings the word lesbian does, if that's what you want.

I’ve explained why the protection afforded by the Equality Act against discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation is in no way undermined by the recognition that trans women can be lesbians.

Where? How?

Transwomen are male.
Lesbians are female
Transwomen cannot be lesbians
Lesbians cannot be transwomen.

Thanks, TalkingtoLangClegintheDark. I missed that bit about sexual orientation being arbitrary.

How can we have dialogue, let alone compromise, with those who can say things like that — which as you point out, is grossly homophobic. It's effectively saying there's no such thing as homosexuality. Lesbian erasure in one.

It is so interesting in the development of gender identity theory and language, so many new words and concepts have been created. 150 genders now apparently, and you can apparently even invent your own pronouns.

But, when it comes to words and language specific to women, all of a sudden new words aren't possible, only changing the definition of words such as woman and lesbian to include males will do.

I do not consent to changing the definition of woman to include males, and there are many lesbians on this page saying the same of their terminologies.

In this debate I think the terms transphobic and homophobic have become somewhat meaningless, as they are used at the drop of a hat. I think we need to be more specific than just sticking a 'phobic' on the end of our concerns.

Noone should unilaterally insert themselves into a category from which they have previously been excluded. If the ts and Cs of being a woman are to be changed, then I want my say. You can identify all you want. That does not change the definition.

Identifying into an oppressed minority is a truly offensive thing to do, particularly if you come from the group doing the oppressing.

But, when it comes to words and language specific to women, all of a sudden new words aren't possible, only changing the definition of words such as woman and lesbian to include males will do.

They needs our words for their validation. I will not be giving up my words or validating. My beliefs are rooted in fact, not woo.

@Erikrie

But, when it comes to words and language specific to women, all of a sudden new words aren't possible, only changing the definition of words such as woman and lesbian to include males will do.

They needs our words for their validation. I will not be giving up my words or validating. My beliefs are rooted in fact, not woo.

Yes yes yea

@Shedbuilder

Thanks, TalkingtoLangClegintheDark. I missed that bit about sexual orientation being arbitrary.

How can we have dialogue, let alone compromise, with those who can say things like that — which as you point out, is grossly homophobic. It's effectively saying there's no such thing as homosexuality. Lesbian erasure in one.

Glad to be of help.

I am struggling with the sheer volume of bullshit, misogyny and homophobia on this thread (see also, “speaking as a lesbian may I just inform you that lesbians are more violent and dangerous to women than men are”, I mean, I know DA exists in the lesbian community too, but seriously, WTF?) but I just couldn’t let that particular outrage stand.

Because, yes. Lesbian erasure. And not even a hint of good faith.

Identifying into an oppressed minority is a truly offensive thing to do, particularly if you come from the group doing the oppressing.

Absolutely. This is at the root of it all. Although obviously, as in the case of women overall, you don’t have to be a minority to be oppressed as a group.