Trans lesbian?

[Timeforatincture]

My first ever post on this board. Long time reader, and have found it highly educational. Thank you everyone.

There is a pullout in today's Guardian about influential lesbians. Cameos and longer pieces. One of the longer pieces is an interview with a "trans lesbian."

AIBUin thinking that's a bit odd?

What I've said is the individuals should be held accountable, not the entire group who identify as trans women attracted to women

Ahhh the NAMALT defence.

A lesbian shouldn’t have to say ‘no’ to a biological man in a lesbian space, because they shouldn’t be there in the first place.

Any biological man ‘identifying’ as a lesbian is by their very nature causing harm to actual lesbians (same sex attracted women).

Trans women are more than free to chose a new label but they don’t get ‘lesbian’ and they don’t get ‘women’. Those are taken and have a defined meaning which isn’t being expanded to include biological males.

So what do you think of lesbians who ask out hitherto straight women? It happens all time and quite often leads to relationships - but, in your reasoning, such a suggestion is incredibly disrespectful of straight women's boundaries, isn't it?

Do they call these women homophobic if they are turned down? Do they go on Twitter and threaten women who refuse their advances? Do they try to have their jobs taken away because they refuse to accept that sex can't be changed?

When lesbians are doing the above then you can ask the above question

Well I don't think a lesbian who doesn't want to date a trans woman is homophobic

well yeah

cos a woman dating a male would be same sex attraction, not homosexuality. So society would be a-OK with that

It's astonishing that some people struggle to see that

I'm not campaigning to destroy anything

Great! But you are putting forward an ideology that does do that, though, I’m afraid.

So what do you think of lesbians who ask out hitherto straight women? It happens all time and quite often leads to relationships - but, in your reasoning, such a suggestion is incredibly disrespectful of straight women's boundaries, isn't it?

Sorry, I don’t see what that has to do with the topic at hand? The lesbian, by virtue of being with another women, remains a lesbian, and the hitherto straight woman would be a bisexual in a lesbian relationship. All very straightforward, and if it works out, fantastic. I’m not sure I get your point.

I’m a lesbian and I’ve never asked out a straight woman - does this happen often?? I’ve never heard of it.

I have, however, had several ostensibly straight women, some in relationships, come on to me. I lost a good friendship over it once - she made a pass at me more than once and when I turned her down because a) I valued our friendship and b) she had a boyfriend, she first dropped me then went round telling all our mutual friends that we had fallen out because I’d made an unwanted pass at her, when the opposite was true.

Lesbians are used to being used as a pawn or projection screen for straight people to play out their sexual fantasies on. It’s why many of us hated the Candy Bar many years ago, because it was full of straight couples looking to pick up a lesbian for a threesome.

Lesbian identity has always been mocked and vilified and yet simultaneously appropriated by straight people. At least we used to have safe lesbian spaces but now with the advent of the ‘transbians’ those have gone too. It’s all part of the same disrespectful and homophobic pattern.

@BernardBlackMissesLangCleg

Well I don't think a lesbian who doesn't want to date a trans woman is homophobic

well yeah

cos a woman dating a male would be same sex attraction, not homosexuality. So society would be a-OK with that

It's astonishing that some people struggle to see that

I actually meant to type transphobic but was half asleep and typing too fast.

@Sophoclesthefox

I'm not campaigning to destroy anything

Great! But you are putting forward an ideology that does do that, though, I’m afraid.

So what do you think of lesbians who ask out hitherto straight women? It happens all time and quite often leads to relationships - but, in your reasoning, such a suggestion is incredibly disrespectful of straight women's boundaries, isn't it?

Sorry, I don’t see what that has to do with the topic at hand? The lesbian, by virtue of being with another women, remains a lesbian, and the hitherto straight woman would be a bisexual in a lesbian relationship. All very straightforward, and if it works out, fantastic. I’m not sure I get your point.

You referred to a point made by another poster which said "This is where you're wrong, I've said in the thread I think it's awful if any lesbian woman has felt pressured to date a trans woman if she doesn't want to."....and went on to infer that any request to date from a trans lesbian to a lesbian should be considered an affront to gay women's sexual boundaries because they would not be interested in male genitalia.

My point is that, surely, in the same reasoning, any lesbian asking out a hitherto straight woman is guilty of exactly the same transgression - thinking that a straight women might be interested in a relationship with someone with female genitalia, and that suggestion is an affront to their sexual boundaries. They are surely completely disrespectful of straight women's boundaries? Surely in your reasoning, this is exactly the same problem?

It’s really not, because my issue is with male born people over riding women’s sexual boundaries in broadly the same way that they have always tried to do, and your example isn’t that.

@Sophoclesthefox

It’s really not, because my issue is with male born people over riding women’s sexual boundaries in broadly the same way that they have always tried to do, and your example isn’t that.

O sorry, I thought that the logic would be that over-riding sexual boundaries in general should be considered problematic, I didn't realise it was only a problem when male born people do it.

They are surely completely disrespectful of straight women's boundaries? Surely in your reasoning, this is exactly the same problem?

This is a poor attempt at a gotcha, and suggests you don't actually have a response to the relevant point, which is female exclusively same sex attracted people, a historically oppressed community, not being allowed to have a word to describe them.

My point is that, surely, in the same reasoning, any lesbian asking out a hitherto straight woman is guilty of exactly the same transgression

jesus

way to completely ignore

1. the inequality between men and women
2. ingrained lesbophobia in society

Its like people literally can't see structural inequality

no, your example is not the same as males pressuring same sex attracted women to date them, or heterosexual males declaring themselves to be lesbians, which was what the OP of this thread was about

Its like people literally can't see structural inequality

It is, and it's why the same people think it's perfectly okay to give up the definition of woman too, because they aren't concerned about female erasure.

So what do you think of lesbians who ask out hitherto straight women? It happens all time and quite often leads to relationships - but, in your reasoning, such a suggestion is incredibly disrespectful of straight women's boundaries, isn't it?*

Its a completely different situation.

As a straight woman, I can tell you I would rather be romantically approached by a lesbian than a man.

I can confirm, it is NOT the same.

The topic of the debate is: are lesbians permitted to object if male born people demand inclusion in lesbian spaces, and for lesbians to accept them as sexual partners? This is a feminist topic, because it very much echoes existing issues around male sexual entitlement to women, including lesbians, which has been turbo charged by increase in male born people identifying as lesbians. This has been a feminist issue for decades, if not hundreds of years, because it is a foundational part of patriarchal norms- women are sexually available to men.

If you’re very concerned about women being disrespected by predatory lesbians, I suggest you do start a separate discussion about that. It’s not something I’ve experienced, personally, or heard about as being an issue that concerns women very much, so I wouldn’t want it to derail this discussion.

It is, and it's why the same people think it's perfectly okay to give up the definition of woman too, because they aren't concerned about female erasure

YES

And I believe that position (and by extension liberal feminism) to be one of cowardice. Opening your eyes to structural inequality is actually pretty scary

it's oh so much easier to cover your eyes and think 'la la la we basically have equality now'

@Ereshkigalangcleg

They are surely completely disrespectful of straight women's boundaries? Surely in your reasoning, this is exactly the same problem?

This is a poor attempt at a gotcha, and suggests you don't actually have a response to the relevant point, which is female exclusively same sex attracted people, a historically oppressed community, not being allowed to have a word to describe them.

Yup!

If you’re very concerned about women being disrespected by predatory lesbians

cloud fucking cuckoo land

Oh and also, if a straight woman is asked put by a lesbian and they date.

She isn't straight. She is bisexual.

Opening your eyes to structural inequality is actually pretty scary

It is scary. Many people prefer the kind lies. Trouble is, they’re not actually kind…or useful…or workable…

Predatory men or predatory lesbians? Who is the most dangerous to women? Mm..... I'll have to think about that?
The ones who threaten rape or the ones who say " well I tried"
The ones who threaten my job or the ones who walk away?
The ones who scream abuse at me because I won't change my view that sex is immutable or the ones who say nothing because they agree with me.

Such a hard decision.

It's concerning about the studies showing higher levels of intimate partner violence in lesbian relationships compared to gay male relationships and straight relationships, isn't it?

It's concerning the number of transwomen who feel entitled to threaten women with sexual violence on social media just because said women know that human beings can't change sex.

It's concerning about the studies showing higher levels of intimate partner violence in lesbian relationships compared to gay male relationships and straight relationships, isn't it?

eh?

how is this relevant? Unless you're just here to say 'lesbians are mean and so deserve anything men and society choose to throw at them'

is that it?

It's concerning about the studies showing higher levels of intimate partner violence in lesbian relationships compared to gay male relationships and straight relationships, isn't it?

How is this relevant to this conversation?

How does this have anything to do, with the fact that biological males can not be lesbians?

@suggestionsplease1

It's concerning about the studies showing higher levels of intimate partner violence in lesbian relationships compared to gay male relationships and straight relationships, isn't it?

What on earth are you on about?! Two women a week are KILLED by their male partners. Please can you share these concerning studies showing women in lesbian relationships are experiencing worse violence than women with male partners because I smell bullshit.

www.refuge.org.uk/our-work/forms-of-violence-and-abuse/domestic-violence/domestic-violence-the-facts/