Trans lesbian?

[Timeforatincture]

My first ever post on this board. Long time reader, and have found it highly educational. Thank you everyone.

There is a pullout in today's Guardian about influential lesbians. Cameos and longer pieces. One of the longer pieces is an interview with a "trans lesbian."

AIBUin thinking that's a bit odd?

Yes, it's clear that you don't appear to understand why exclusively same sex attracted people, who are oppressed in a specific way by society, should be considered to have a specific sexual attraction without being lumped in with straight and bisexual people, MrsNewms. As with Helen, it appears to come from a place of some privilege.

There is a word for people who are attracted to both sexes, and the word is bisexual. Pansexual if you prefer.

But there are only two sexes, and it's not possible to change your biological sex, so "bisexual" is the word. "Lesbian" is a word which has a specific meaning, not a throwaway identity label anyone can use.

@MrsNewms85 but non of you are willing to listen to how that negatively impacted lesbians.

Identifying how you want, even though you don't fit the legal protected status definition harms the, already marginalised, people who are in that group.

People have given many, specific examples of how it's damaging them and you are just ignoring them.

You are ignoring the actual people in that marginalised group, to make room for people who are biologically and (in most cases) who have lived, been socialised and still have the mind set of the group that is oppressing them.

I can only assume that someone reading sapphos post on the previous page & then continuing to plough on saying it’s fine for men to define themselves as lesbians because it’s not hurting anyone has not a single shred of empathy in their body

[quote Trevsadick]@MrsNewms85 but non of you are willing to listen to how that negatively impacted lesbians.

Identifying how you want, even though you don't fit the legal protected status definition harms the, already marginalised, people who are in that group.

People have given many, specific examples of how it's damaging them and you are just ignoring them.

You are ignoring the actual people in that marginalised group, to make room for people who are biologically and (in most cases) who have lived, been socialised and still have the mind set of the group that is oppressing them.[/quote]
This is where you're wrong, I've said in the thread I think it's awful if any lesbian woman has felt pressured to date a trans woman if she doesn't want to. You seem to have missed that.

What I've said is the individuals should be held accountable, not the entire group who identify as trans women attracted to women.

This is where you're wrong, I've said in the thread I think it's awful if any lesbian woman has felt pressured to date a trans woman if she doesn't want to. You seem to have missed that.

What I've said is the individuals should be held accountable, not the entire group who identify as trans women attracted to women.

It's not just "individuals" though. It's part of gender identity ideology that males can be lesbians and other lesbians refusing to include males in their dating pool is "transphobic", which leads to this social pressure.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

This is where you're wrong, I've said in the thread I think it's awful if any lesbian woman has felt pressured to date a trans woman if she doesn't want to. You seem to have missed that.

What I've said is the individuals should be held accountable, not the entire group who identify as trans women attracted to women.

It's not just "individuals" though. It's part of gender identity ideology that males can be lesbians and other lesbians refusing to include males in their dating pool is "transphobic", which leads to this social pressure.

Well I don't think a lesbian who doesn't want to date a trans woman is homophobic.

I also don't think it's for me to tell a trans woman or trans man how they should identify.

I'm also not homophobic for holding that view.

In your rush to validate males in their chosen gender and sexual identities, and their bisexual female partners, no matter what it means for the women who are described by the word, you seem to be missing this.

Sorry transphobic not homophobic. Typing too fast and when still half asleep.

I'm also not homophobic for holding that view.

It's homophobic to deny people who are exclusively same sex attracted a specific word to describe them, and include people who it doesn't actually apply to.

It's not possible to change biological sex.

Well I don't think a lesbian who doesn't want to date a trans woman is homophobic.

What you think is not the issue here. There is a significant pressure within the LGBT community on lesbian women to validate the identity of MTF trans people by including them in their pool of sexual and romantic partners. Women who are same sex attracted have a word, and it's being appropriated.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

In your rush to validate males in their chosen gender and sexual identities, and their bisexual female partners, no matter what it means for the women who are described by the word, you seem to be missing this.

I at no point have called out any lesbian as transphobic.

I've said several times that I think it's very unfair for any lesbian or gay man to feel pressured to date someone trans.

I also said no one should tell someone else how to identify.

Seems in everyone's rush to disagree with me I've been labelled homophobic.

I at no point have called out any lesbian as transphobic.

I've said several times that I think it's very unfair for any lesbian or gay man to feel pressured to date someone trans.

I also said no one should tell someone else how to identify.

Seems in everyone's rush to disagree with me I've been labelled homophobic.

You don't understand how you glibly giving the word away to males and their bisexual partners contributes to the denial of a coherent term for lesbians. How this all creates social pressure for lesbians not to be "transphobic".

Seems in everyone's rush to disagree with me I've been labelled homophobic.

Well stop saying homophobic things. Simple

In short, you seem rather uninformed and cavalier about all this, when lesbian women on this thread have taken the trouble to explain what the problems are.

This is where you're wrong, I've said in the thread I think it's awful if any lesbian woman has felt pressured to date a trans woman if she doesn't want to. You seem to have missed that.

What I've said is the individuals should be held accountable, not the entire group who identify as trans women attracted to women.

But its not individuals. Its an ideology that is spreading through some lbgtq groups to the exclusion of lesbian women. And no one can stand up to them because they get 'terf' or 'vagina fetishist' shouted them. In colleges they get ostracised, because people don't want to be associates with the 'Terf'. But actually, they are just a lesbian. And this sort of stuff comes from straight women, gay men, lesbians, trans women. It's not a just the odd transwoman, saying this to individuals.

Its actively harming those women, to say 'a transwoman who is attracted to biological women is a lesbian'.

Because, yet again biological males are being centred. If they want a word for their sexuality, they can come up with one. Not change the definition of an existing word to suit them, therefore removing it from the group it belongs to.

And the pressure to date trans women is not the only issue that has been brought up.

And when you were given an analogy of able bodied people identifying as disabled as an example of the dynamic here, you reversed it so there wasn't any problem.

The issue is in the phrase “if she doesn’t want to”, isn’t it?

That contains the assumption that she might. When in fact, the definition of a lesbian is that she won’t. That’s lesbophobia right there- taking issue with gay women’s sexual boundaries, which contain a hard no to all men. You’re making an orientation into a preference. Many women have fought for years to change society’s view on what was seen as an unacceptable prefererence for women, and a rejection of men into an orientation that should be taken seriously and protected in law. Do you not see how for many women that seems like a regressive step?

That’s what I meant in my post above about not even knowing what you’re campaigning to destroy: Hard fought, hard won acknowledgement that it is perfectly fine to socially, romantically and sexually desire only natal females, and that women who do so have a long and proud history and society to draw upon.

I do wonder if this is a new front in an old debate about bisexuals- some of my lesbian friends won’t date bisexual women, because they have had bitter experience of bisexual women not always respecting lesbian communities, and eventually settling down with men. It’s not a new thing that there is tension and disgreement between bisexual women’s and lesbians.

Because, yet again biological males are being centred. If they want a word for their sexuality, they can come up with one. Not change the definition of an existing word to suit them, therefore removing it from the group it belongs to.

This.

It’s not a new thing that there is tension and disgreement between bisexual women’s and lesbians.

No, it's something I've seen, too.

@334bu

*Seems in everyone's rush to disagree with me I've been labelled homophobic.*

Well stop saying homophobic things. Simple

🙄

That’s what I meant in my post above about not even knowing what you’re campaigning to destroy: Hard fought, hard won acknowledgement that it is perfectly fine to socially, romantically and sexually desire only natal females, and that women who do so have a long and proud history and society to draw upon.

Indeed.

@Sophoclesthefox

The issue is in the phrase “if she doesn’t want to”, isn’t it?

That contains the assumption that she might. When in fact, the definition of a lesbian is that she won’t. That’s lesbophobia right there- taking issue with gay women’s sexual boundaries, which contain a hard no to all men. You’re making an orientation into a preference. Many women have fought for years to change society’s view on what was seen as an unacceptable prefererence for women, and a rejection of men into an orientation that should be taken seriously and protected in law. Do you not see how for many women that seems like a regressive step?

That’s what I meant in my post above about not even knowing what you’re campaigning to destroy: Hard fought, hard won acknowledgement that it is perfectly fine to socially, romantically and sexually desire only natal females, and that women who do so have a long and proud history and society to draw upon.

I do wonder if this is a new front in an old debate about bisexuals- some of my lesbian friends won’t date bisexual women, because they have had bitter experience of bisexual women not always respecting lesbian communities, and eventually settling down with men. It’s not a new thing that there is tension and disgreement between bisexual women’s and lesbians.

I'm not campaigning to destroy anything.

But it's clear in gender identity ideology, there can't be any wiggle room, or the whole towering house of cards begins to look very shaky indeed. There can't be a separate word for women, or lesbians. Because that would mean saying "no" to some male people, and that wouldn't do.

@Sophoclesthefox

The issue is in the phrase “if she doesn’t want to”, isn’t it?

That contains the assumption that she might. When in fact, the definition of a lesbian is that she won’t. That’s lesbophobia right there- taking issue with gay women’s sexual boundaries, which contain a hard no to all men. You’re making an orientation into a preference. Many women have fought for years to change society’s view on what was seen as an unacceptable prefererence for women, and a rejection of men into an orientation that should be taken seriously and protected in law. Do you not see how for many women that seems like a regressive step?

That’s what I meant in my post above about not even knowing what you’re campaigning to destroy: Hard fought, hard won acknowledgement that it is perfectly fine to socially, romantically and sexually desire only natal females, and that women who do so have a long and proud history and society to draw upon.

I do wonder if this is a new front in an old debate about bisexuals- some of my lesbian friends won’t date bisexual women, because they have had bitter experience of bisexual women not always respecting lesbian communities, and eventually settling down with men. It’s not a new thing that there is tension and disgreement between bisexual women’s and lesbians.

So what do you think of lesbians who ask out hitherto straight women? It happens all time and quite often leads to relationships - but, in your reasoning, such a suggestion is incredibly disrespectful of straight women's boundaries, isn't it?

I'm not campaigning to destroy anything.

By including males and bisexual women as "lesbians" you are contributing to the erasure of lesbians as exclusively female same sex attracted people.