Trans lesbian?

[Timeforatincture]

My first ever post on this board. Long time reader, and have found it highly educational. Thank you everyone.

There is a pullout in today's Guardian about influential lesbians. Cameos and longer pieces. One of the longer pieces is an interview with a "trans lesbian."

AIBUin thinking that's a bit odd?

You should look at how many of that substantial number of gay and lesbian people actually would include trans people in their dating pool, whatever they say, according to research. So when it comes to it, I'm not sure they really do hold the same views as you, a person attracted to both sexes. But it's easy to say it.

But surely in your view they must be homophobic just for holding and expressing that view, regardless of how they behave?

How odd, Helen, I didn't actually mention anything about their pronouns in the specific post you were replying to. I merely said that they were male, and either attracted to women, or in a relationship with another MTF trans person.

What exactly, when you read my post, made you comment about "a gender identity that doesn't make sense" to you?

I was acknowledging that there could be examples of a couple where one or both were born male but identified as women, where it was not obvious to me what it meant to them to ‘identify as female’ - and therefore, the use of the term ‘lesbian’ might feel a bit strained to me - but that I would regard it as their business and not for me to have an opinion on

@Ereshkigalangcleg

As you may recall, the precise wording I was responding to was this:

A male who is attracted to women, if that male expresses that they would like to be viewed as a woman?

Two males attracted to each other, where both males express that they would like to be viewed as a woman?

You didn’t elaborate on what steps, if any, these ‘males’ have made towards transitioning, so I was speculating on what you might have in mind.

I am querying that logic, on the basis that it seems to me people who are attracted to people of the same sex (or gender) - whether exclusively or otherwise - have been equally oppressed historically (and still are).

I disagree. LGB people are oppressed on the basis of same sex attraction, not heterosexual attraction, which means that people who are exclusively same sex attracted in severely homophobic places have only two options, to risk criminal punishment, social exclusion or even death in some cases or to live without love and sex altogether. Bisexual people at least don't have to forgo all chance of happiness in those situations although yes they might be punished for homosexuality if they do have a same sex relationship.

I don't think you can ever look at a class of people and say they were "equally oppressed historically". Including women, black people or any other oppressed class.

You didn’t elaborate on what steps, if any, these ‘males’ have made towards transitioning, so I was speculating on what you might have in mind.

Please just answer the reasonable question without "speculating". The "steps" are irrelevant to my point.

But surely in your view they must be homophobic just for holding and expressing that view, regardless of how they behave?

Yes I think it's a homophobic view. Just like some women are misogynistic, Helen.

but that I would regard it as their business and not for me to have an opinion on

That's you. Not most people. If I say that pineapples are blue I don't expect others to agree.

This is all about the erosion of boundaries, and there is fuck-all 'kind' about it.

Quite.

Anyway, off to bed here. Night all.

Please just answer the reasonable question without "speculating". The "steps" are irrelevant to my point.

I did answer your question. I’m not sure what more you’re looking for. To summarise, I said that in some cases it seems completely natural and common sense to me to say that a trans woman and a non-trans woman in a relationship are both lesbians (if that is how they identify). In other cases - eg in a hypothetical example (which is what I thought you were getting at) where one or both trans women has only stated that they ‘want to be viewed’ as a woman and not taken any other steps towards transitioning - it would fit less comfortably in my mind. But I still wouldn’t see it as my business to define their sexualities or their relationship (unless I thought they were acting in bad faith for some reason).

Yes I think it's a homophobic view. Just like some women are misogynistic, Helen.

And yet it’s a view held by a very very large number of gay, lesbian and bisexual people.

Btw why do you throw my name in there when it’s already obvious you’re talking to me?

Changing the definition of woman/female to include men/males who identify as women/females, allows a member of the advantaged/oppressor group, to appropriate the very group they oppress/disadvantage, it is itself extremely offensive and degrading to females. We are not a feeling or thought a man can have, we are not something a man can identify into, we are human beings not a costume a man can assume. (That is without even going into males in female’s spaces.)

As is evident from this thread homosexual females particularly suffer when the words women/female are re-defined to include men, as it allows the advantaged group heterosexual males to appropriate the very group they oppress homosexual females, again it is of itself extremely offensive and degrading to homosexual females (lesbian women). Again we are not a feeling or thought a man can have, we are not something a man can identify into, we are human beings not a costume a man can assume.

The ideology that justifies this idea that people can identify as the opposite sex, is facilitating misogyny and homophobia, under the guise of being progressive. This thread illustrates this perfectly, some on it cannot even comprehend why many lesbians find it deeply offensive for men to appropriate us, or why we would object to our spaces and groups being colonised by males. The utter contempt for lesbians boundaries is stunning but certainly not brave.

This is exactly why lesbians, and women in general, who understand this situation, oppose gender ideology so strongly.

Helen I find your position dismissive of the history of oppression for mainly gay men but also lesbians really discomfiting.

And also extremely narrow.

Homosexuality is still illegal in many countries. And in others, though legal in theory. There is still murder. Beatings. Corrective rape.

Iran

Lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender (LGBT) people in the Islamic Republic of Iran face legal challenges not experienced by non-LGBT residents. While people can legally change their assigned sex, sexual activity between members of the same sex is illegal and can be punishable by up to death.

'There are 69 countries that have laws that criminalise homosexuality, and nearly half of these are in Africa'

South Africa

Eudy Simelane

Simelane's partially clothed body was found in a creek in KwaThema. She had been abducted, gang raped, beaten, and stabbed 25 times in the face, chest, and legs. She had been one of the first women to live openly as a lesbian in KwaThema.[1] A report by the international NGO ActionAid, backed by the South African Human Rights Commission, suggested that her murder was a hate crime committed against her because of her sexual orientation.[1]

Gay men were criminalised and experienced entrapment by police in London.

Men with criminal records from that time are still alive.

Being transgender does not require any change in appearance or attire.

And while it would be difficult to not be free to look how you want- this applied to loads of people in countries which enforce gender role. Heterosexuality being a part of gender role.

In those places. Do you believe that a masc presenting transwoman would be arrested or killed for having sex with a woman?

No. These laws are about religion, masculinity. What men and women should be like. Not about internal gender id. At all.

It is offensive in the extreme to identify as lesbian or gay when in an opposite sex relationship.

It ignores and frankly casts aside the massive ongoing problems for homosexual people. And their history of enormous oppression.

If you can't see that then... That's strange. To me.

So much to unpick in this thread.

I very much enjoyed the classic:

“Nobody is saying that lesbians who don’t think that transwomen can be lesbians are doing anything wrong!”

Followed in short order by

“Of course, I, a lesbian, include transwomen in my dating pool because I’m not bigoted !

Does that amount of cognitive dissonance not hurt?

And for the poster(s) who are adamant that simply no one in their social circle believes that being a lesbian is an exclusive same sex attraction, had you ever pondered the considerable social costs of expressing that? If you’re as well connected as you say you are, you’ll no doubt be familiar with the hounding of lesbians, lesbian spaces, and lesbian owned businesses for any lesbian daring to express those views. And the fact that you’re here, telling us that you and everybody around you aren’t vile transphobic bigots tells me that GC people in your social circle would be very cautious about revealing their thoughts to you. Their are trans allies of my acquaintance who have no idea what I believe, because I absolutely do not discuss this topic with them.

It makes me so, so sad that the vibrant lesbian culture that flourished in the 70s-90s is being driven back underground by people who don’t even seem to know what they’re destroying

It seems most posters on here are unaware of the types of people who now dominate lesbian groups. These are typical members and a typical response to anyone who challenges them being there.

Do you think this is fair on lesbians? Do you think lesbians need and deserve any safe spaces without having to validate males? Do you think the threat of violence (in this case anal rape) makes a lot of lesbians scared to speak up?

It's a really shitty situation tbh made a lot worse by straight women who insist there are no problems at all with anyone identifying as a lesbian.

Please show a bit of sisterhood and support lesbians getting our spaces back rather than calling us bigots for wanting them.

Thank you.

to all the amazing women who kept up the good fight last night.

To summarise, I said that in some cases it seems completely natural and common sense to me to say that a trans woman and a non-trans woman in a relationship are both lesbians (if that is how they identify).

I think you are working to a different definition of "common sense" as well as "woman" and "lesbian".

@Helen8220

Please just answer the reasonable question without "speculating". The "steps" are irrelevant to my point.

I did answer your question. I’m not sure what more you’re looking for. To summarise, I said that in some cases it seems completely natural and common sense to me to say that a trans woman and a non-trans woman in a relationship are both lesbians (if that is how they identify). In other cases - eg in a hypothetical example (which is what I thought you were getting at) where one or both trans women has only stated that they ‘want to be viewed’ as a woman and not taken any other steps towards transitioning - it would fit less comfortably in my mind. But I still wouldn’t see it as my business to define their sexualities or their relationship (unless I thought they were acting in bad faith for some reason).

I agree with this, said it myself as politely as possible, but this caused me to be attacked and called homophobic.