Caster Semanya Guardian Interview

[GrimDamnFanjo]

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/apr/23/caster-semenya-theyre-killing-sport-people-want-extraordinary-performances

Interesting article but still maintains DSD is just a matter of testosterone differences.

Before puberty caster would not have looked masculine.

extract from Mail article linked previously:

"Caster grew quickly, becoming taller and more thickset than her friends even as a toddler. 'She was always running around, even as a little girl. She was preoccupied with sport - she never played with dolls. She was a good deal bigger than the other schoolgirls.'

She hated the romantic films loved by her sisters - and used to fight with them because she wanted to watch old wrestling and karate highlights. She spent the rest of her time playing football with her male cousins." (continues)

Well there’s a phrase I couldn’t have imagined ever being discussed as a child...

I have a question:

Caster competes in the 400m, 600m, 800m, 1000m and 1500m. Why doesn't she hold the world record in any of them?

Caster competes in the 400m, 600m, 800m, 1000m and 1500m. Why doesn't she hold the world record in any of them?

Because, when compared to other testes-havers, Caster’s not that good.

As CS was given a birth certificate stating she is female, effectively she is doing nothing wrong to continue to claim being female. But if she fathered the baby, that’s another level of cognitive dissonance.

What does it matter if Caster Semenya holds the record or not?

Are you about to apply false logic to participation in sport again. Just because someone does not win, doesn’t mean someone with male puberty advantages should ever compete in a female only competition.

Castor has not run faster than the 400-1500m women's world records.

This will be the case for many male athletes.

Its not the bar by which they are excluded from women's athletics.

@R0wantrees

Before puberty caster would not have looked masculine.

extract from Mail article linked previously:

"Caster grew quickly, becoming taller and more thickset than her friends even as a toddler. 'She was always running around, even as a little girl. She was preoccupied with sport - she never played with dolls. She was a good deal bigger than the other schoolgirls.'

She hated the romantic films loved by her sisters - and used to fight with them because she wanted to watch old wrestling and karate highlights. She spent the rest of her time playing football with her male cousins." (continues)

I’m sorry that you think playing football and hating dolls make a boy. I am more progressive than that.

Only the 800m and 1500m are serious events for Semenya. The 400m is a sprint. The other events are fillers at low level events, no one cares about them.

The women’s 800m world record is held by a likely doping Eastern European athlete from the 80s. Semenya is 3rd on the all time list after this doper and Pamela Jelimo. Semenya likely holds back, having seen Semenya race.

And it doesn’t matter anyway. Just because Semenya isn’t the fastest ever doesn’t mean Semenya is eligible to be there in the first place.

I’m sorry that you think playing football and hating dolls make a boy. I am more progressive than that.

Caster has a Y chromosome.
Caster is male.

ALL elite athletes should be chromosome tested
those with a Y chromosome should be barred from Female (X only) events

its not tricky

As CS was given a birth certificate stating she is female, effectively she is doing nothing wrong to continue to claim being female.

Semenya will have been made aware some time ago that the assigning of female sex at birth was innacurate.

I’m sorry that you think playing football and hating dolls make a boy. I am more progressive than that.

No one thinks that . What is being demonstrated is the argument for Semenya being eligible for women’s sport - that Semenya was “raised a girl” - has no basis in fact, and is meaningless when you hear about Semenya’s early life.

Trans women have been allowed to compete in the Olympics since 2004. How many medals have they taken? If none, how many have even been good enough to qualify? Just trying to get a sense of how big a problem this is.

@ListeningQuietly

Caster has a Y chromosome. Caster is male.

ALL elite athletes should be chromosome tested
those with a Y chromosome should be barred from Female (X only) events

its not tricky

Exactly.

If caster thought she was xx until the test results came back does that mean we should allow her to compete? No. So the rest isn’t relevant.

@Shizuku

Trans women have been allowed to compete in the Olympics since 2004. How many medals have they taken? If none, how many have even been good enough to qualify? Just trying to get a sense of how big a problem this is.

No you’re not. You’re demonstrating once again that the women and girls losing out to males in their sport, at any level, don’t matter to you. Same old, same old.

@NotBadConsidering

I’m sorry that you think playing football and hating dolls make a boy. I am more progressive than that.

No one thinks that . What is being demonstrated is the argument for Semenya being eligible for women’s sport - that Semenya was “raised a girl” - has no basis in fact, and is meaningless when you hear about Semenya’s early life.

Her parents believed her to be a masculine girl. I doubt they had even heard of dsd. How exactly is one “raised as a girl” aside from her family and peers believing her to be female?

If I (pretty average adult woman) said as a child played football and climbed trees hated dresses etc but was female you wouldn’t even think to say I was raised a boy!

ALL elite athletes should be chromosome tested

They used to be. The fact that they stopped is what prompted scouts to start actively looking for DSD males. Semenya's athletic career started shortly after genetic testing stopped.

I'm not clear on why the testing was stopped. I gather it was sometimes a bit of a shock to potential athletes to be told they were male, but not sure that's sufficient to stop doing it.

(It was only a once-in-a-career cheek swab).

Before puberty caster would not have looked masculine.

The false belief (contrary to the experience of anyone who has children) that girls and boys are identical before puberty. Being discussed in this other thread as we speak.

Just trying to get a sense of how big a problem this is.

Its a very substantial problem that male athletes can compete in women and girls' sport. At every level this risks excluding girls and women from opportunities to compete and succeed.

How exactly is one “raised as a girl” aside from her family and peers believing her to be female?

Ask the people who are so convinced by this they think it’s evidence enough that Semenya should be eligible for women’s sport, despite the knowledge now about the diagnosis. Don’t ask me.

Her parents believed her to be a masculine girl. I doubt they had even heard of dsd. How exactly is one “raised as a girl” aside from her family and peers believing her to be female?

Hang on, how do you know what her parents believed? There's a reference above to Semenya's father using "he" throughout an interview.

We know Semenya was believed to be female at birth (so in the first few hours!), but they had years to find out Semenya was actually male, and there are a lot of ways that could come about. Including just changes during growth.

The evidence does suggest that Semenya was believed to be male at school at least in the years leading up to grade 11 (age 15), at which point that teacher found out Semenya was "actually a girl". (The scout had just been round?)

Transwomen have had very limited ability to compete in the Olympics until this one coming.

I am very sure you know this and are being disingenuous .

And I will repeat what has been said before by so many. A male with ANY advantages should never be taking the place of a female in female sports. It does not matter if they are mediocre male athletes or elite male athletes. They are male.

If you have issues with that, we cannot help you. There will be a new review after the Olympics by the sporting bodies and now there is even better understanding of the male advantages. Even J. Harper agrees, or is Harper now problematic as a researcher in your eyes?

Shizuku

Two of those records - 400m, 800m - were set by Eastern European athletes in the mid 80's, when it was known that widespread doping was taking place, The 1000m is never run in competition, The 1500m and 2000m records are held by Genzebe Dibaba of Ethiopia, probably the finest middle/long distance runner of all time.
In 2016, in a space of four hours, Semenya won the 400m, 800m and 1500m at the South African national championships.
In 2019 Semenya won a record 31st 800m race at an international meeting.

@R0wantrees

As CS was given a birth certificate stating she is female, effectively she is doing nothing wrong to continue to claim being female.

Semenya will have been made aware some time ago that the assigning of female sex at birth was innacurate.

Yes I understand that. I’m not talking about this from a competitive POV. I’m talking a legal basis to call themselves female, a mother and so forth.

And I said effectively. Rather than this being a biological fact.