Caster Semanya Guardian Interview

[GrimDamnFanjo]

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/apr/23/caster-semenya-theyre-killing-sport-people-want-extraordinary-performances

Interesting article but still maintains DSD is just a matter of testosterone differences.

And once again, I will point out that the relevance of Semenya’s identity to Semenya and those in Semenya’s inner circle is to determine their complicity in Semenya competing as a male in women’s sport for 10 years.

And again I will point out that the relevance of whether Semenya has fathered their child is regarding the ongoing release or blockage of information that might damage the carefully constructed “Semenya is female” narrative. It has nothing to do with gender critical thought processes and everything to do with transparency for the sake of those who have been negatively affected by Semenya’s actions.

I can't believe all three medal winners for that Women's race at the 2016 Olympics were male. And that there are people who don't see a problem with that. This is Twilight Zone level.

@Pookah83

I can't believe all three medal winners for that Women's race at the 2016 Olympics were male. And that there are people who don't see a problem with that. This is Twilight Zone level.

Why are the others not such big news? Did they just withdraw from competing once diagnosed?

@Pookah83

I can't believe all three medal winners for that Women's race at the 2016 Olympics were male. And that there are people who don't see a problem with that. This is Twilight Zone level.

I hadn’t realised that either! Just told my (South African) Dh - he’s gobsmacked!

I think there are several arguments on this thread that are getting mixed up.

Firstly, there is the argument about Caster Semenya's physiological makeup. I have seen posts on this thread that:
-Caster is a woman with high levels of testosterone or
-Caster is a person with a vagina

That is incorrect. Caster Semenya has the DSD 5-ARD, which is a disorder of male sexual development. She has XY chromosomes and, due to the nature of her DSD, went through a largely normal male puberty.

I'm not bothered about whether Semenya extracted sperm to biologically father her own child. However, it is relevant that other people with the same disorder are able to do this, as it demonstrates how unequivocally biologically male people with this disorder are - regardless of their personal gender identity or how they were raised.

(That's very different, for example, from people with CAIS - complete androgen insensitivity syndrome, who are also genetically XY and have male levels of circulating testosterone, but are completely unable to respond to it at a cellular level, so develop a female phenotype and female secondary sexual characteristics at puberty, but are sadly infertile and have no ability to have biological children. People with CAIS are able to compete in female sport and do not have to lower their testosterone level, because their body just doesn't respond to it. Dutee Chand is a good example.)

The second argument comes about when most of this information about Semenya's phenotype had been explained. Then the argument switches to being about gender identity. There is a strong narrative pushed in the media that Semenya was raised as a girl; that she had no idea that she wasn't a girl until she had to have a genetic test as an adult; that she just wants to be able to live her life quietly as a women; and that it would be cruel to deny her sporting success in her chosen gender identity.

That's when the arguments about how she was raised etc come in. I agree with a previous poster that these are less relevant: much as it feels unfair at the individual level to Caster, she should not be allowed to continue to compete in women's events, because she is biologically male and went through a normal male puberty.

However, if arguments are made that Semenya should be able to compete as a women based on her gender identity, it's worth exploring what that gender identity is. There's not much evidence available, but if her family use male pronouns for her, she wears traditional male attire for e.g. her wedding, and people at her school assumed she was a boy, that overall suggests that she has a male gender identity.

Now, I agree that clothes, pronouns and stereotypes don't change someone's sex. But if the argument is that Caster Semenya should compete as a woman because gender identity is more important than biology, it would be good to see some evidence that she feels she has a female gender identity. If the argument is that all this is crude stereotyping, we're back to just the biology argument.

@Shizuku

Trans women have been allowed to compete in the Olympics since 2004. How many medals have they taken? If none, how many have even been good enough to qualify? Just trying to get a sense of how big a problem this is.

You are looking at the wrong end of trans women in sport.

Have a look at the increase in transwomen in school and college sports in America.

Especially when it comes to the possibility of scholarships being won by transwomen thanks to the changes in government policy.

It looks like they all refuse to lower their testosterone in order to be eligible. The rule is honestly more generous than an XY male should get, especially for the Olympics. It is really odd that the Guardian article doesn't refer to the 46,XY karyotype or that the other medal winners have that too.

It is really odd that the Guardian article doesn't refer to the 46,XY karyotype or that the other medal winners have that too.

If you read the Guardian regularly, it's not that odd unfortunately.

FrippEnos

I think you will find the poster is well versed in ignoring some quite relevant facts to be able to attempt deflection and distraction.

In May 2019, the Kenyan athletics authorities banned Margaret Wambui from competing in the Diamond League, because Wambui refused to take medication o lower their T levels.

runningmagazine.ca/the-scene/olympic-800m-bronze-medallist-margaret-wambui-banned-from-stockholm-diamond-league/

Kenya has also dropped two more runners - Maximilla Imali and Evangeline Makena - after blood tests showed high levels of Testosterone.

www.newsclick.in/testosterone-claims-two-more-victims-after-caster-semenya

I am not sure what Francine Niyonsaba is doing, but her last run was in 2018 (as far as I can see) where they won silver at the African championships.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francine_Niyonsaba

It does look as though Niyonsaba is going to attempt to qualify for the Olympic 5000m as well.

olympics.nbcsports.com/2021/02/08/francine-niyonsaba-5000-meters/

Niyonsaba won gold in the World Indoor championships in Birmingham in 2018

worldathletics.org/athletes/burundi/francine-niyonsaba-14532686

The Sharon Davies interview was fantastic!

@Shizuku

Trans women have been allowed to compete in the Olympics since 2004. How many medals have they taken? If none, how many have even been good enough to qualify? Just trying to get a sense of how big a problem this is.

A few things for you to think about.

Elite women athletes in world class middle distance track events are , statistically , a very small cohort.

People born with DSD and identifying as DSD are also a very small cohort. People identified as women with DSD are an even smaller cohort.

So logically, in the normal course of events you would therefore expect that the number of elite women athletes competing in world class events who have also been diagnosed with DSD would be an extremely small number, infinitesimal.

But it isn’t.

So you need to ask yourself why does a tiny cohort of elite female athletes contain a hugely disproportionate number of people who have an extremely rare condition, that coincidentally, gives them a number of physical advantages over female athletes without DSD.

And the obvious answer is because they have been selected and coached in particular sports precisely because their DSD gives them the edge over female non DSD athletes.

The DSD athletes have had the advantage of additional bone length and density, heart size, lung capacity, muscle size and reflexes. They don’t have hormonal surges once a month,or periods, they have testosterone levels that even with hormonal treatment are vastly elevated compared to non DSD women.

Essentially, even if designated as female ,they have all the advantages of male athletes. It’s nationally sponsored cheating by the back door, just as heinous as the blatant drug abuse in sport by Russian, East German and other countries that was prevalent and obvious in the latter part of the 20th century .

That’s why it’s a problem. And it’s a growing problem. I think the Tokyo Olympics track and field events are going to be a huge shock to many people this summer.

2021 may signify the end of fair competition in many women’s sports. And if, as they so often are, new Country, Olympic and World records are set those records will stand for all time , and no women athlete will ever be able to equal them or surpass them.

That’s why it’s important. That’s why it’s a big problem.

Oh, and I realise that your question was about transwomen. When it comes to DSD identified female athletes and transwomen athletes the advantages both have over natal female non DSD female athletes are more or less identical.

Fascinating thread, I hadn't realised Caster is male until now.

When I read about Caster being banned,
years ago, I thought it was terrible, that she was being penalised for something she couldn't help, that she must have pcos or some other female disorder that increased testosterone.

Had I known at the time she is male, I don't think I would have defended her as I have been, thinking she is a female who has been targeted, when transwomen are allowed to lower testosterone and compete. No one with XY chromosomes should be competing against XX, under any circumstances and vice versa (although I realise that female puberty would not give physical advantages that would enable them to compete with males).

I think that the omission of her male dsd, must be a deliberate deception by the media, and that's understandable for the guardian, but why are other papers not covering this?

Perhaps this Olympics will be turning point, like the doping scandal previously, but there has to be honest coverage in the media for the public to see what is going on.

@NotBadConsidering

And just to dispel the other myth, about Usain Bolt, who Semenya mentions in the article. He is often used as an example of “exceptional” human performance. But people forget that when he set his world record of 9.58s in the 100m, the person who came second, Tyson Gay, also ran an exceptional time of 9.71s. The difference between the two of them was just over 1%. The same can be applied to Phelps. If you look at his records, there is someone close behind with a similar difference. Bolt was 1% better than his nearest rival. He was exceptional, as was Phelps, but only by that margin. They just managed to be consistently 1% better than the rest.

In comparison, Florence Griffith Joyner’s world 100m record is 10.49s (with lingering suspicions). The difference between Bolt and Flo Jo is almost 10%. Tens of thousands of males have run faster than Flo Jo, including boys still at school.

Excellently put

that she must have pcos or some other female disorder that increased testosterone

That's certainly the impression the media try to create. Semenya has "higher testosterone than normal for a woman".

This is technically true, just as it is for Usain Bolt, who also has "higher testosterone than normal for a woman".

It's worth noting that someone with PCOS, or any female with high testosterone is not barred. The IAAF DSD rules explicitly apply only to a set of DSDs of Y-chromosome males. There is no testosterone limit for females.

The IAAF kind of made a rod for their own backs by saying these athletes could compete if they lowered testosterone - made it possible to frame it as just "woman with too-high testosterone". No, its "male DSD with too-high testosterone" - broadly the same limiting as exists for "transwoman with too-high testosterone"

So you need to ask yourself why does a tiny cohort of elite female athletes contain a hugely disproportionate number of people who have an extremely rare condition, that coincidentally, gives them a number of physical advantages over female athletes without DSD.

And the obvious answer is because they have been selected and coached in particular sports precisely because their DSD gives them the edge over female non DSD athletes.

The advantage is being male sex. Its the same advantage that other male athletes would have over female athletes.

The relevence of this DSD is that some male athletes have been permitted to compete in women's sport at elite levels. As others have said, its likely that male athletes with the same condition born elsewhere are taking part in men's sport having not being assigned female at birth.

What is there though? The only sport I can think of where men and women compete together is equestrianism.

No, no we got schooled on this the other day. It was dancing, and darts, and snooker and...tiddlywinks, I think?
Something like that.

Yes I’ve seen a woman darts player in with the men. It’s hardly a competition based on strength and agility though is it? Is shooting/archery mixed sex? I think I curling may be.

The bows and rifles used in archery & shooting are different weights for men and women

Darts, snooker, ermmm

I believe croquet was put forward.

Bridge?

Seems like Caster's wife, Violet Raseboya knew she was male right away

www.thesouthafrican.com/lifestyle/who-is-violet-raseboya-caster-semenya-wife/

"FIRST IMPRESSIONS WEREN’T EVERYTHING
Unfortunately, things didn’t quite get off to a smooth start between Violet and her superstar partner. They first crossed paths in a restaurant 11 years ago.

Raseboya asked the doping officials who escorted Semenya to the restroom “what is a boy doing in here?”. The double-Olympic gold medalist wasn’t too happy with the comments, but they put their differences aside and began dating soon after."

What’s that one Harry Potter plays? Is that mixed sex?

Quidditch

Even though snooker is mixed there are not many women.