Caster Semanya Guardian Interview

[GrimDamnFanjo]

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/apr/23/caster-semenya-theyre-killing-sport-people-want-extraordinary-performances

Interesting article but still maintains DSD is just a matter of testosterone differences.

@Shizuku

So glad you asked.

New Zealand weightlifter Laurel Hubbard was only a mediocre competitor until transitioning. She has now expressed her ambition to compete in the Tokyo games. Laurel’s family are I believe quite wealthy so have been able to support her overwhelming and burning desire to be an Olympian and represent her country. I’m sure the team members dropped from the NZ women’s squad are pleased for her.

Closer to home Emily Bridges was hotly tipped for gold in cycling, though not until Paris 2024. Emily says she was always aware she was trans but put off transitioning. In order to fulfil her Olympic dream. Howeve, injury means that Emily’s position in both UK and World rankings dropped below the level which would qualify for funding from British Cycling, so she brought forward her transition so yay! will be eligible to race as a woman since her times will qualify her for a place as an elite woman’s cyclist. Unfortunately , Emily’s inclusion on the squad will mean that an elite woman cyclist , who will of course have been training and racing and having their own dreams of Olympic success , will be dropped from the team and no longer be able to claim funding, including access to training camps, specialist nutritional advice, top of the range equipment, physio care etc etc .

See that’s the problem Shizuku, for every trans women who gets themselves included on an Olympic or other elite athletic squad, ( because let’s face it, they weren’t good enough , strong enough or fast enough for the men’s squad) a woman has to be dropped. That’s a woman who has got up early and gone out in the cold and the snow for early morning runs for years , who has driven the length and breadth of the country for races and training, who has given up nights out , socialising and meeting friends, who has put their other plans on hold, has been bruised and battered, aching and sore, has wept with frustration and exhaustion because they too had ambition and a dream.

This is why we have separate sporting events for men and women, because sport is about people striving and achieving their best against equal competitors , not about women being defeated by mediocre men even before the starting pistol has been fired.

viques

Don’t bother, this poster knows all this, has been told several times. It’s a daily occurrence.

So glad you asked.

Everytime they post, it presents a great opportunity to answer with clear and evidenced posts.

I am sure those reading these threads appreciate this. Because each time, a new nuance is covered off and disseminated.

It makes these threads incredibly informative, don’t you think?

@NotBadConsidering

viques

Don’t bother, this poster knows all this, has been told several times. It’s a daily occurrence.

I know, I just hope that one day it gets through, you know water dripping on a stone and all. And if not to S then to someone else who hasn’t joined up the thinking.

And if not to S then to someone else who hasn’t joined up the thinking.

Any ‘drive by invigorating of debate’ is a great opportunity to do that I reckon. We need to make sure we take advantage of it every time.

@Brockintheoven if Selina doesn’t get the chance as an athlete she deserves, and I hope she does, she will surely make it as a politician. That was such a persuasive argument she put across, how can anyone in their right mind not hear the truth of it.

I feel sorry for her. However she is biologically male with most if not all of the the physical advantages that implies (that’s not always the case - I think there are about 40 conditions that come under intersex).

Fairness for the majority ie woman and girls is more important than a minority of athletes such as Semenya.

I can feel for her as an individual - but I don’t want to destroy women’s sport for her, and I don’t understand why anyone does.

I can feel for her as an individual - but I don’t want to destroy women’s sport for her, and I don’t understand why anyone does.

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. Or the one.

(I was doing Star Wars on the Maya thread, so why not Star Trek on this one).

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. Or the one.

Important addendum: this also applies to mixed-sex situations even if the many are female and the few are male.

As counter-intuitive as it may seem to some.

@Helleofabore

FrippEnos

I think you will find the poster is well versed in ignoring some quite relevant facts to be able to attempt deflection and distraction.

I see what you mean.

Very well put, viques.

I do have sympathy for the hand that Caster has been dealt in life. It just doesn’t override the enormous sympathy I have for female athletes who are bearing the brunt of the discrimination in this policy, and why should it?

And I want the media to be fucking honest in reporting what is actually going on here

So let me get my thinking straight on this.

Caster Semenya has done an interview stating that ‘the world’ expects sports people to achieve new records each year.

And cannot see the hypocrisy of their own words in the face of what they know about their own body and have probably known since 2009.

They are fine setting records for female events knowing they have had the advantages of having had male puberty. Knowing those records may not be broken for a long time if ever by someone who is a female.

They are just not happy when the world expects ‘them’ to perform better.

They are right. The pressure to achieve ever increasing records needs to be addressed. But they are very hypocritical about their own actions here.

To be fair though. Caster doesn’t hold world records as far as I can tell. There is one they have not quite broken by the Czech runner who people believed took performance enhancing drugs.

That record may also not be broken for a very long time.

Yes. Caster is working in the shadow of doped female athletes.

Current female athletes cannot beat those world records.

Many would believe any female athlete who did was probably doping.

It's not in Semenya's interests to break those records, as much as they might be capable of or want to. It would draw even more attention, and raise more questions about their status.

It's sufficient to beat the current female athletes.

This is a good example of how one system failure leads to the next system failure...

@Helleofabore

So glad you asked.

Everytime they post, it presents a great opportunity to answer with clear and evidenced posts.

I am sure those reading these threads appreciate this. Because each time, a new nuance is covered off and disseminated.

It makes these threads incredibly informative, don’t you think?

Couldn't agree more, thank you all for your wisdom and research.

I am often in awe of the powerful, articulate points raised by so many on these boards.

Shizuku

You mean like white women harming women of colour by winning scholarships?

Just getting back to this point. Again, thank you for posting this false argument.

I want to be really clear here why this is so offensive.

You are stating that a white woman gaining a scholarship that is open to ALL females is wrong. By that argument (and it was just one line that you posted so it is doing a great deal of work), readers can only suppose you believe that is proportionate to a person who has the advantages from a male puberty being awarded a scholarship meant for females.

Please do clarify if I have misinterpreted your post and you were meaning that at all.

So, a 'white' female that was awarded the scholarship, may indeed have some socio-economic advantages over females who do not have those advantages due to racial oppression. However, they are female (meaning that they have a body formed around the production large gametes, whether they produce those gametes#). The sport they compete in is measuring like for like in their body's ability.

Males, who have the benefit of male puberty do not have a body that is 'like for like' for a female. There are many benefits, and we have good links on this thread that describe these in detail.

Therefore, a 'male' being awarded the scholarship meant for a female, is actually nothing like a 'white' female being awarded the scholarship. And the race issue can be readily fixed through a scholarship being set up specifically for high achieving women who overcome, or need assistance to overcome, racial oppression.

The only way to overcome the advantages that males have over females is to, once again, exclude all males from female sport. There is simply no way to level the playing field when it comes to that pubertal advantage. Although, I look forward to you posting new evidence that shows it does. Reliably. Every time.

(And not the Harper study of them and their mates including an algorithm to 'smooth' over a decade between results. Like that takes into account all the factors that were at play between times taken a decade apart..... )

Again. Thanks for bringing this to our attention.

weren't meaning (apologies.)

Oh. And it should be also stated that when those transgirls in Connecticut, as they were at the time, were racing and winning against female athletes, they were not on any medication, I believe. At all.

So, this is happening as we speak with males not even fulfilling the International sporting commission for that sport's policy because they were under 18 at the time. (and no, I am not arguing that teenagers should be medicalised so they can compete. Far from it.)

Absolutely helleofabore

Do you think Shizuku was referring to this woman of colour being denied her place on the podium and a potential scholarship to the university of her choice.

Sorry here is a photo of Chelsea Mitchell one of the female runners from Connecticut

Apologies this athlete's name is Alanna Smith. Chelsea Mitchell was one of the other athletes bringing a case against allowing male athletes to compete in female events.

@334bu

Do you think Shizuku was referring to this woman of colour being denied her place on the podium and a potential scholarship to the university of her choice.

Oh. Was that who you referring to Shiz? I must have misunderstood.

Shizuku

You mean like white women harming women of colour by winning scholarships?

Yeah, if there were white women who ID’d as black to win scholarships that were intended for women of colour, I would have an issue with it. That’s why people have a problem with males IDing as female and taking women’s places.