Caster Semanya Guardian Interview

[GrimDamnFanjo]

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/apr/23/caster-semenya-theyre-killing-sport-people-want-extraordinary-performances

Interesting article but still maintains DSD is just a matter of testosterone differences.

@R0wantrees

Before puberty caster would not have looked masculine.

extract from Mail article linked previously:

"Caster grew quickly, becoming taller and more thickset than her friends even as a toddler. 'She was always running around, even as a little girl. She was preoccupied with sport - she never played with dolls. She was a good deal bigger than the other schoolgirls.'

She hated the romantic films loved by her sisters - and used to fight with them because she wanted to watch old wrestling and karate highlights. She spent the rest of her time playing football with her male cousins." (continues)

I agree Caster should not be competing with women as Caster has an unfair advantage due to being male. The fact that Caster did not conform to female stereotypes is completely irrelevant.

If Semenya had not embarked on a successful career as a female athlete the realisation of being male sex would have most likely led to a correction of identity documents.

Just trying to get a sense of how big a problem this is.

That does not matter either. And I am sure we have been through this on other threads. It doesn't matter because for EVERY male who participates in female sports, means a female is not able to. After facing significant oppression in sports, another female will lose an opportunity, yet again, to a male who has had the advantages of having a male puberty, and quite often sexist discrimination already in coaching and training.

And let's NOT forget menstruation challenges.

So.... if only ONE person who has had a male puberty (or in kid's sports is male with those pre-pubescent advantages already starting to be detailed) causes a female to lose their position, that is harmful to woman and girls.

If that male then succeeds at ANY level to then take awards, sponsorship and future earnings from a female, that is all it takes to have a significant effect.

But keep on posting. When you do, you know we answer with evidence and readers are then able to make up their own minds. When you cannot back up your assertions with robust evidence, it simply proves to those seeking evidence that you don't have any and you rely on emotive reasoning which fails to measure up.

Emotive reasoning fails, because it usually ignores the fact that all around the world, it is females who are still oppressed. Any emotive reasoning focuses on people in countries where trans people already have rights and neglects to mention that there are communities, even in those countries, where females are STILL amongst the most oppressed and face significant human rights issues due to being not even recognised as citizens of the countries they live in.

So, please do continue, it is enlightening for all.

@NotBadConsidering

How exactly is one “raised as a girl” aside from her family and peers believing her to be female?

Ask the people who are so convinced by this they think it’s evidence enough that Semenya should be eligible for women’s sport, despite the knowledge now about the diagnosis. Don’t ask me.

I’m not the one arguing she was raised a boy because she hated rom coms and played football.

"Just trying to get a sense of how big a problem this is."

It is a huge problem, when all three medal winners in the women's 800m final in Rio 2016 - Semenya, Wambui, Niyonsaba - had exactly the same 46 XY DSD condition - had all been through a male puberty.
I do not consider that to be a coincidence.

What is being forgotten is the reason why all this needs to be out in the open. There are scores of women over the last 12 years who have lost out due to decisions made in 2009. There are women who should have gold medals, silver medals, bronze medals, prize money, sponsorship deals. There will be women who were in the semi finals and can’t call themselves Olympic finalists. There are those like Lynsey Sharp who spoke out about her concerns and was vilified horrendously as a result. These women deserve to be vindicated for their lost careers and earnings. The media is complicit in the ongoing punishment of these women by refusing to publish the truth and allowing Semenya and the surrounding team to control the narrative and lies. They should all hang their heads in shame.

I’m not the one arguing she was raised a boy because she hated rom coms and played football.

Neither am I. What is being argued is that how Semenya was raised holds no water in terms of eligibility.

It is a huge problem, when all three medal winners in the women's 800m final in Rio 2016 - Semenya, Wambui, Niyonsaba - had exactly the same 46 XY DSD condition - had all been through a male puberty. I do not consider that to be a coincidence.

Yes. 1 male DSD winner getting onto a podium could be an outlier. True of any one-off event. Maybe there wouldn't be another in our lifetimes, but still worth looking into.

But seeing 3 at once is firm evidence of a massive systemic problem. Individuals are popping up at a frequency and winning with a frequency that women can be totally excluded from the podium.

Which is why the IAAF had to act before it got even worse.

She was 'raised as a boy' not because CS wore trousers but because they were allowed to, not because CS enjoyed wrestling but because they were not discouraged from doing so, because the expectations and behaviours they were measured against were those stereotypes ascribed to boys.

And after that final, when three males took all the medals, Lynsey Sharp was accused of “misogynoir”:

www.stylist.co.uk/people/what-the-caster-semenya-case-says-about-misogynoir-and-transmisogyny-in-sport-and-beyond/264821

And death threats:

www.google.com.au/amp/s/www.telegraph.co.uk/athletics/2020/05/02/lynsey-sharp-interview-didnt-do-anything-not-sure-apologising/amp/

@PrawnofthePatriarchy

As a committed feminist, I find the antagonism towards Caster Semenya hard to understand.

I wouldn't say there was antagonism. It's nothing personal - although we do know that Caster has known her real sex for about ten years now. People object to the injustice of her competing against women.

This a human being, born a certain way.

This a human male, born with a DSD. CS should not be competing against human females.

I agree with this.

A few years ago before I was on MN and became more GC I was watching Caster race with my young son. He’s autistic and has no filter and looked really confused and asked “if this is a woman’s race why was it won by a man?”

I do feel sorry for Caster having such intimate matters made public not to mention the disorder in the first place must be very difficult. However it’s not fair either that to suit one person in an unfortunate situation countless women get chucked under the bus. CS has benefitted nicely from her situation, I don’t know much about her times etc but I would guess if she was competing as male she’d not be at world champ/Olympic level etc.

because they were not discouraged from doing so, because the expectations and behaviours they were measured against were those stereotypes ascribed to boys.

Exactly. We know girls are often not permitted to do these things, even in quite progressive countries.

We're not saying that doing these things shows that Semenya was a boy - that's not our view.

We're saying that the evidence of doing these things and being encouraged suggests that those around Semenya viewed Semenya as a boy. Semenya was receiving male socialisation.

Just being permitted to wear the boys' uniform is pretty definitive. How many schools in the UK were permitting girls to wear the "boys'" uniform 15-odd years ago? And surely South Africa wasn't ahead of us? But that would not be such compelling evidence if it was a 2021 photo from the UK.

@NotBadConsidering

I’m not the one arguing she was raised a boy because she hated rom coms and played football.

Neither am I. What is being argued is that how Semenya was raised holds no water in terms of eligibility.

So was I!

Hmm maybe I don’t feel so bad for Caster having read that article. She really doesn’t come across well.

NotBadConsidering

Thanks for those articles. The first one about the "misogynoir" is pretty disgusting and largely racist. The second one about Lynsey Sharp revealed a few things I didn't know, particularly about the South African media and also the harrowing time Lynsey went through after the smear test.
All the evidence is out there, but there are still people who refuse to see it.

Every time I see this post I want to say: how can you have a conversation about this person if you can't even do her the basic fucking courtesy of spelling her name right?

What activities she liked as a child, whether she had boyfriends, what she talks about in interviews, whether she extracted sperm to father a child = not relevant and shows up many as not being as critical of gender as they like to think.

The presence of XY chromosomes = not fair for CS to compete against XX females. It sucks for her but it wouldn’t be fair to make an exception, especially as several other athletes have the same condition.

But genuinely no need to discuss dress or speculate over parentage of a child.

Even more reason to go for sports where genitalia don't matter, that way there's none of this nonsense. Running about and throwing things are not the only sports available.

Who is anyone trying to kid about that 2016 winners photo? That is three men.

@murbblurb

Even more reason to go for sports where genitalia don't matter, that way there's none of this nonsense. Running about and throwing things are not the only sports available.

Who is anyone trying to kid about that 2016 winners photo? That is three men.

What is there though? The only sport I can think of where men and women compete together is equestrianism.

It is not about dress, it is about the narrative that we should be kind because someone everyone including themselves thought was a girl suddenly discovered after winning lots of medals in good faith that they had xy chromosomes, even though they are womanly through and through. And therefore it would be mean to stop them competing.

That article purposely explains Caster’s condition in a way that leads people to think she’s a bio female who just happens to have a high level of testosterone. The inaccuracy of that pisses me off. How can people understand and have an opinion of what’s under discussion if the situation is misrepresented?

I admit that I’ve lost sympathy for her over the years. She’s allowed herself to be used as a figurehead, a superhero, when she could (should?) have quietly withdrawn once her DSD was fully known. I can’t decide if she’s being disingenuous or if she genuinely can’t see the issue.

I found this bit ironic:

“She recently became a mother – the name of her daughter remains a guarded secret for now – yet thoughts quickly turn as to how to explain this sporting saga when the time arrives. “It will be difficult,” she says. “She will be confused and will think how can a person try and cut down someone’s career?”

The career that’s been cut down could equally apply to natal females who’ve been disadvantaged by the presence of bio makes in their sports...

Makes=males obvs

The only sport I can think of where men and women compete together is equestrianism.

Shooting events are the only other one that springs to mind.

As a first approximation, if females aren't disadvantaged, then it's not a power/speed/strength event, so it's probably not a sport. The Olympic motto is "Faster. Higher. Stronger" (in Latin to make it sound better). Sadly males are all three of those.

Is a pure skill/control event really a sport?

(I find myself picturing that thing where you move a little metal ring along a wiggly wire without making contact as an Olympic sport. )

@Pota2

What activities she liked as a child, whether she had boyfriends, what she talks about in interviews, whether she extracted sperm to father a child = not relevant and shows up many as not being as critical of gender as they like to think.

The presence of XY chromosomes = not fair for CS to compete against XX females. It sucks for her but it wouldn’t be fair to make an exception, especially as several other athletes have the same condition.

But genuinely no need to discuss dress or speculate over parentage of a child.

Thank you that was what I was trying to say but you’ve said it much clearer.

The point of sharing the observations of men involved in Semenya's childhood (father and teacher) is specifically in challenge to the narrative of being 'raised a girl'.