Caster Semanya Guardian Interview

[GrimDamnFanjo]

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/apr/23/caster-semenya-theyre-killing-sport-people-want-extraordinary-performances

Interesting article but still maintains DSD is just a matter of testosterone differences.

@andyoldlabour

Viques.

"Caster says that in elite women athletes the rate of DSD is something like 7 in 1000 . And that she can always recognise them . Well I can believe that.
In the general population the 46 XY which is the most common among people identified as female is actually reckoned to be more like 1 in 20,000.
That is not a coincidental blip in the statistics."

I don't believe that it is a coincidence at all. I think coaches/organisations in some countries are deliberately looking for athletes with this particular condition.
At the Rio Olympics in 2016, all three medallists in the women's 800m had exactly the same 46XY DSD condition - Caster Semenya, Margaret Wambui and Francine Niyonsaba.
That is an incredible coincidence

Yes, I agree with you, I was being ironic.

Such a relief that there is so much information about all this now. Not that those seeking to remove women from success in women's sport pay much attention but hopefully it will allow elite women ousted from medal tables to take action down the line.

How can you be a feminist but object? On what basis? Facts are facts. Semenya knows this. We all do too.

Maybe the word feminist has been redefined.

@DolphinDreams do you still feel the same way, having read this thread and watched the video?

I used to feel huge sympathy for Caster, having read the newspapers. That video shocked me in the first few seconds. Imagine training for years, finally getting to the olympics and finding Caster was competing against you? There is nothing that reads 'female' about Caster at all.

This is a telling framing:

(extract)
"The ECHR can only recommend the president of World Athletics, Sebastian Coe, changes tack. No hands will be forced.

“The message is very simple,” says Semenya. “As a man, he should look into his [former] wife’s eyes and say to her: ‘I gave you kids. If someone was treating our kids in this way, what would be your reaction?’ He needs to think as a human, not as the president of an organisation.” (continues)

Chromosome testing is now pretty cheap and almost instant.

Every female athlete at elite level should be tested.

Any with a Y chromosome should not be allowed to compete in female events.

School photo (Caster is the one without a jumper)

Choice of uniform?

There's an interview with Semenya's former teacher where its referenced that Semenya always wore male school uniform.

My sister only wore school skirt under sufferance. Has worn one about twice since then (and once was as a bridesmaid). She would’ve been allowed to wear trousers then? Very very unlikely. Why?

All that needs to happen is for Caster to consistently lose against other competitors who self identify or who have had surgery but not hormone treatment, then.

After all, there's technically nothing wrong with them that they would need to take the Pill.

Going from gold medallist to just somewhere in the field and then failing to qualify as numbers increase should cause their position to alter somewhat, shouldn't it?

[quote PennineSpring]This is an excellent unbiased assessment of the situation assessing the science of the case. Worth a listen.

podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-real-science-of-sport-podcast/id1461719225?i=1000437150061[/quote]
Am half way through and it is good. Also interesting (and reflecting what is said here) because the programme is alluding to the fact that Caster has XY biology, but has a DSD which means that she can only partially synthesise testosterone. However, rather than arguing that this means that She is technically is a man with a DSD and the question being whether the disadvantage of the condition means that they should properly compete in the women’s category, the starting point is that this person is a woman and the question is whether the advantage is enough to take her out of that category. On the basis that Caster was raised as a girl because of the ambiguity created by her condition, I can see why it would be considered that way round, but on a purely scientific basis, someone with this biology is a man with a reduced ability to synthesise testosterone.

On the basis that Caster was raised as a girl
Until she hit puberty
and then Caster's family and friends knew she was not.

But the athletics bodies will do ANYTHING to win
so cynically used the birth certificate to get her on the women's squad.

Caster is a victim here
instead of being allowed a quiet life, the whole world knows their genetic makeup

Look at the picture of the podium at the Rio Olympics for the 'women's' 800m

people without a Y chromosome did not get medals.

I disagree that Castor is a victim here. Castor took an opportunity (which I don't blame them for) and has deliberately not been candid.

There's been a great deal of deliberate emotional manipulation of the the press etc.

Oh indeed, Caster has decided to play the game to their own advantage
but what real choice is there?
Hand back the medals and admit they were a cheat?
In a country like South Africa?

The skier I mentioned earlier did exactly that. Handed his medals back.

He was required to hand the medals back by the sporting bodies.

I used to have a lot more sympathy until I learned that she'd basically not had female pubertal development at all. She claims not to have realised she had any difference until she was tested at 18 - but really? An 18 year old woman wasn't wondering why she wasn't developing breasts, starting periods, and why she was the normal size/weight for a male? Not mentioning this to her doctors?

Indeed.

Are there examples of people with similar conditions who were raised to know they were boys with a DSD and then it was argued that their DSD (one which reduces the effectiveness of testosterone) means that they should compete in the women’s category?

Obviously this is different from women who happen to be XY but the Y does not function at all, plus there is a sliding scale between no synthesis and fully synthesising which does make it very difficult to know where the line should be, especially (as this podcast makes clear) the relationship between the production level of testosterone and how that translates into factors that enhance performance is not direct.

I don’t envy the people looking at this or the people stuck in the middle of it.

Actually, it doesn’t feel good even talking about it. I am not qualified to find answers.

@HPFA

I used to have a lot more sympathy until I learned that she'd basically not had female pubertal development at all. She claims not to have realised she had any difference until she was tested at 18 - but really? An 18 year old woman wasn't wondering why she wasn't developing breasts, starting periods, and why she was the normal size/weight for a male? Not mentioning this to her doctors?

Semenya went through male puberty

the programme is alluding to the fact that Caster has XY biology, but has a DSD which means that she can only partially synthesise testosterone.

Really? Can you give a timestamp? Ross Tucker has previously been quite clear on this, so I'm inclined to trust his word, but what you're describing is PAIS.

My understanding is that Semenya has 5-ARD, which would not match that description. The problem is failure to convert testosterone to DHT. From Wikipedia:

Levels of testosterone are elevated, while levels of DHT are significantly decreased, leading to male undervirilization.

The lack of DHT causes problems in genital development, but the testosterone can still largely do its job on the rest of the body.

@NecessaryScene1

Caster would [not] be able to birth a baby.

But Caster could well be the biological father. Individuals with 5-ARD are often able to produce viable sperm, so can father children, as Erik Schinegger did.

I might regret asking this but how do they get the sperm out?

"I might regret asking this but how do they get the sperm out?"

I was wondering that as well.

"Male fertility can still be possible if viable sperm is present in the testes and is able to be extracted. In general, individuals with 5-ARD are capable of producing viable sperm"

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5%CE%B1-Reductase_deficiency