Caster Semanya Guardian Interview

[GrimDamnFanjo]

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/apr/23/caster-semenya-theyre-killing-sport-people-want-extraordinary-performances

Interesting article but still maintains DSD is just a matter of testosterone differences.

So Caster is chromosomally male. Had a good long career with an inbuilt advantage. Just call it quits Caster! Ps I always thought the testes had to be outside the body for viable sperm though?

I might regret asking this but how do they get the sperm out?

In 5-ARD individuals, the level of genital development varies - they can range from externally apparently-normal female, akin to a female with MRKH, up to partial male development. The Wikipedia article says

In individuals with an ambiguous genital resulting in a macroclitoris/micropenis, the genital may be capable of ejaculations as well as erections, but may be of insufficient size for penetrative sexual intercourse.[citation needed]

Erik Schinegger says he did have some corrective surgery.

I always thought the testes had to be outside the body for viable sperm though?

Why would that be? Temperature wouldn't be ideal, but the only real issue would be getting them out. A fairly minor obstacle compared to a lot of fertility treatments.

This is quite an interesting clip.

Reasonably balanced and in support of XX women categories.

@NecessaryScene1

the programme is alluding to the fact that Caster has XY biology, but has a DSD which means that she can only partially synthesise testosterone.

Really? Can you give a timestamp? Ross Tucker has previously been quite clear on this, so I'm inclined to trust his word, but what you're describing is PAIS.

My understanding is that Semenya has 5-ARD, which would not match that description. The problem is failure to convert testosterone to DHT. From Wikipedia:

Levels of testosterone are elevated, while levels of DHT are significantly decreased, leading to male undervirilization.

The lack of DHT causes problems in genital development, but the testosterone can still largely do its job on the rest of the body.

It’s probably just my over simplified (non technical) reporting of what they said. Not trying to spread Mia-information. What you describe sounds like what they were describing. I am probably mistaken in using the word synthesise. But they were not specific about Semenya’s condition. They were describing conditions that affect amount of testosterone and conditions that affect how it is processed.

*mis

But they were not specific about Semenya’s condition. They were describing conditions that affect amount of testosterone and conditions that affect how it is processed.

Ah, right. The athletics rules that were brought about because of Semenya cover a range of conditions. But ultimately all conditions covered are "46XY (male) DSDs with some ability to respond to testosterone", so that's a reasonable approximation.

XY males with zero ability to respond to testosterone (ie CAIS) are not currently restricted.

There are no restrictions on any XX individuals with any DSD, and there's no restriction on natural testosterone level on XX individuals. (High natural testosterone in a female is not a net advantage - it means you will be ill).

IMO, the rules for testosterone-sensitive XY DSDs, allowing them to compete by lowering testosterone, are not fair - they should be no more permitted than a non-DSD XY male, as both have the longterm virilisation advantage. But at least they're currently consistent in permitting both.

[quote toffeebutterpopcorn]Ah here he is- www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6772989/Intersex-skiing-champion-say-transgender-women-NOT-compete-female-events.html[/quote]
That's an extraordinary story. What an amazing man.

What an amazing man.

And what a contrast to Semenya.

If Caster was competing in male sports, if we tried telling males to get out of the way so someone with a DSD could win to spare their feelings, we would be laughed out of the country.

Venus and Serena Williams have the most compelling back story but we wouldn’t have heard it if they were being consistently beaten by someone else. For all we know, there have been some incredible female athletes (even just from SA) that have been overlooked while we’re all looking at Caster.

I’m so annoyed that the IAC have encouraged this to continue. It undermines the legitimacy of women’s sports from the very top. Men’s is the real competition and women’s is the Xfactor spin off where we’re looking at feelings and popularity.

it is the deliberate search for athletes with the condition who can win medals and bring home glory to countries who think a medal table is more important than a fair and level running track

Sorry to hark back now the thread has moved on, but this is exactly what's happening and exactly why Semenya should be barred from competing in all women's sport, not just in specific distances. Scouts are everywhere looking for kids with DSDs for this very reason.

As a committed feminist, I find the antagonism towards Caster Semenya hard to understand. This a human being, born a certain way. Not someone who has undergone extensive hormone therapy and surgery to alter their natural body. As she says, we don't ban athletes with other natural physical advantages. Why should we ban her ? It seems wrong to demand that someone take drugs in order to compete.

The only time this person refers to themself as female or a woman, is when they are actually on the track, or arguing to be there. See the video SunsetBeetch posted. The do not include themselves with girls at all. They do not seem to have ever thought of themselves as female.

I heard an interview on R4 with Semenya's father after Semenaya started winning medals internationally and the father referred to Semenya throughout with male pronouns. I thought at the time it was an unfortunate language mistake.

"She recently became a mother – the name of her daughter remains a guarded secret for now"

This quote from the guardian- has she adopted a child? The wording is obviously designed to bolster the case she currently has.

@R0wantrees

He was required to hand the medals back by the sporting bodies.

The fact that the relevant authorities haven't made a clear ruling in the current cases has made it much more difficult for individuals to do the right thing. There will be all kinds of pressures, not least economic ones, but also from the governments and national sporting bodies, to carry on. Athletes are athletes, they aren't necessarily cut out to be in politics or to be moral philosophers.

The fact that the relevant authorities haven't made a clear ruling in the current cases has made it much more difficult for individuals to do the right thing.

Nail on the head. In all of this stuff, it's the authorities that are failing the most.

There is a need to say "no" to individuals for the greater good, and often their own good too, and it can be very hard for someone close to the individual to do that.

Having an external authority that will straightforwardly say "no" can save an awful lot of relationship stress by avoiding a fight with parents/guardians/others. That close person isn't put into the position of having to be the only gatekeeper.

This is the problem with the second Keira Bell ruling - it's potentially putting parents into that gatekeeper position again. TBH, I reckon a lot of doctors would really rather have such a near-total ban that they're not put into that position of saying "no" either.

A huge number of people left the Tavistock, apparently mostly because they felt unable to get system back-up for their "no"s.

@SD1978

"She recently became a mother – the name of her daughter remains a guarded secret for now"

This quote from the guardian- has she adopted a child? The wording is obviously designed to bolster the case she currently has.

Her wife has given birth.

I personally feel in the absence of any rational policy suggesting otherwise, CS should be able to compete in women's events without changing testosterone levels. And if women with DSDs are being scouted for sport - good.

I don't think she has to be nice about women, or to wear skirts, or to have a delicate jawline. I do think there is racism in how she's been treated. And I do think there is a big question mark over whether her specific condition should be taken out of women's categories. But they haven't made a usable policy otherwise and they should be consistent.

@TooExtraImmatureCheddar

Dolphin, it’s because she has a sex disorder - she’s genetically male, with external genitals that appear female. So at birth she was assumed to be female, but she has male levels of testosterone, muscular advantages etc. I agree that it’s absolutely not her fault that she was born different, and I can also see exactly why she doesn’t think she ought to stop competing. At the same time, I personally believe that Seb Coe is right and that she has too many genetic advantages to compete against women. It’s a really tricky situation.

I see Caster's point though. We don't ban really tall people from competing in the high jump, or basket ball. I'm 5'2". I could never excel at those sports. Is that fair?
Some people are born with webbing between their fingers or toes. Would they be banned from swimming?
There are probably lots of other examples where physique aids prowess in a particular sport.

@MrsFin we do no separate sport based on height or webbed feet though. We separate based on sex and sometimes weight.

I believe Caster is 5ARD

www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/jun/18/caster-semenya-iaaf-athletics-guinea-pig

This twitter thread may be useful

twitter.com/fondofbeetles/status/1230568153047945217?s=21

It’s not a single benefit such as height though. Caster has none of the usual sporting disadvantages of a female body.

Yawnthisway

Semenya hasn’t had testes removed, otherwise there would be no discussion about needing to take medication to lower testosterone. No one has referred to Semenya as “he” on this thread as far as I can see.

Semenya has 5 alpha reductase deficiency which can clearly be determined from reading the full Court of Arbitration for Sport (Cas) ruling, freely available online:

www.tas-cas.org/fileadmin/user_upload/CAS_Award_-redacted-_Semenya_ASA_IAAF.pdf

It’s worth reading the full ruling.

@PermanentTemporary

I personally feel in the absence of any rational policy suggesting otherwise, CS should be able to compete in women's events without changing testosterone levels. And if women with DSDs are being scouted for sport - good.

I don't think she has to be nice about women, or to wear skirts, or to have a delicate jawline. I do think there is racism in how she's been treated. And I do think there is a big question mark over whether her specific condition should be taken out of women's categories. But they haven't made a usable policy otherwise and they should be consistent.

The rational policy is already there. We segregate sport by sex. Semenya is of the male sex. What exactly qualifies Semenya to be eligible to compete in women’s competition?