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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Caster Semanya Guardian Interview

275 replies

GrimDamnFanjo · 24/04/2021 09:53

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/apr/23/caster-semenya-theyre-killing-sport-people-want-extraordinary-performances

Interesting article but still maintains DSD is just a matter of testosterone differences.

OP posts:
NecessaryScene1 · 25/04/2021 08:31

Some people are just naturally born male. Should they be banned from women’s sports?

Either we have women’s sports or we don’t.

Absolutely. If there was a basketball league for under-6-foot players, then players over 6-foot should be banned from it. Some people would be born tall, and they're would not be "banned from playing", they would just be told they couldn't compete in the under-6-foot category.

This is not banning, it's putting people into the correct category - categories that already exist, and for particular reasons.

Ross Tucker calls this inclusion of males "category defeating". It's breaks the logic of the category existing, and undoes the benefit.

NecessaryScene1 · 25/04/2021 08:32

so a normal XY male with low T won’t be eligible thankfully.

Except they will, via the separate rules on transwomen. There might be some difference in detail, but broadly it's the same - testosterone suppression to 5 or 10nmol/l and you're in.

Bawdrip · 25/04/2021 08:33

@Tibtom

School photo (Caster is the one without a jumper)
Wow, I looked at the photo before reading the "without a jumper" and instantly assumed that was Semanya with her brother and father and thought that's a bit mean to pick out that photo of her where she actually does look very feminine. Then I realised she is the father figure.
UsedUpUsername · 25/04/2021 08:35

This reply has been deleted

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UsedUpUsername · 25/04/2021 08:37

@NecessaryScene1

so a normal XY male with low T won’t be eligible thankfully.

Except they will, via the separate rules on transwomen. There might be some difference in detail, but broadly it's the same - testosterone suppression to 5 or 10nmol/l and you're in.

Genuinely did not know this. How are they going to square that circle 🤪
Sophoclesthefox · 25/04/2021 08:39

How are they going to square that circle

I believe that the approved response at that point is “omfg, stfu you nazi bigot!” Grin

The circle remains unsquared.

Helleofabore · 25/04/2021 08:46

The attempt to have Caster reduce their testosterone was an attempt to square that circle.

toffeebutterpopcorn · 25/04/2021 08:49

But surely it’s also to do with lung capacity, muscle strength etc?

When DH hit puberty he went from a soft wee lad to a wall of muscle with the strength and stamina of an ox. I don’t think testosterone reduction now would take much of that away?

Helleofabore · 25/04/2021 08:52

Of course. It is about the entire body.

But it too often gets reduced to ‘testosterone levels’. Bonkers.

NecessaryScene1 · 25/04/2021 08:53

I don’t think testosterone reduction now would take much of that away?

This is intuitively obvious, but apparently has not been to sporting authorities.

But Hilton & Lundberg and now Harper et al have published literature reviews confirming that.

See twitter.com/FondOfBeetles/status/1368174222992961547

AnnaBananaFoFana · 25/04/2021 08:54

What bothers me about CS is that in day to day life they live as a man, they dress as a man, they clearly identify as male. However, when it comes to sport they are suddenly female? When you watch this interview, if you didn’t know Caster’s story you wouldn’t think twice about what their gender is.

NecessaryScene1 · 25/04/2021 09:02

if you didn’t know Caster’s story you wouldn’t think twice about what their gender is

Well, both sex and gender.

Although as the trans rights people would say, "transwomen don't owe you femininity". You can be a "woman" while looking like Danielle Muscato, so Semenya is not out of line with that.

(Photo taken from Danielle's current bio on their website).

Caster Semanya Guardian Interview
UsedUpUsername · 25/04/2021 09:03

@toffeebutterpopcorn

But surely it’s also to do with lung capacity, muscle strength etc?

When DH hit puberty he went from a soft wee lad to a wall of muscle with the strength and stamina of an ox. I don’t think testosterone reduction now would take much of that away?

Yes, but they got themselves into this mess by not making the correct decisions in 2008 or so. This was an attempt to protect women’s sports while avoiding blowback from the usual suspects for disqualifying Caster.
PermanentTemporary · 25/04/2021 09:04

But it shouldn't be about how Caster identifies or how they speak about themselves! The question is, is Caster make with a VSD or female with a VSD?

AnnaBananaFoFana · 25/04/2021 09:04

@NecessaryScene1 yes, I meant to say sex and gender. And as for that picture.. I have no words.

PermanentTemporary · 25/04/2021 09:05

Male not make. God fat fingers

NotBadConsidering · 25/04/2021 09:06

@PermanentTemporary

But it shouldn't be about how Caster identifies or how they speak about themselves! The question is, is Caster make with a VSD or female with a VSD?
I don’t know how many times it has to be said on the thread: Semenya is male with a DSD. Only males get 5 alpha reductase deficiency.
nolongersurprised · 25/04/2021 09:10

Yawn
I’m not sure what medical literature search types you were pursuing but here’s an easily found article on 3 brothers with 5 alpha reductase deficiency, 2 of whom fathered children.

academic.oup.com/jcem/article/83/9/3236/2865492

Helleofabore · 25/04/2021 09:16

The question is, is Caster make with a VSD or female with a VSD?

Exactly.

And the answer is well known now. The science is in, the medical reports are in, the trials to make it fair are done and the athlete just changed distance ..

... and that they could do that and still win needs to be mentioned time and time again. How many females can chop and change distance to that degree and still win?

nolongersurprised · 25/04/2021 09:19

Pragmatically it’s likely that true fertility is hard to ascertain given many parents were encouraged to raise their children as girls including hormone manipulation at puberty and removal of internal testes.

R0wantrees · 25/04/2021 09:21

I still believe she was raised female

There is quite a lot of of evidence which suggests this was not the case.

Pota2 · 25/04/2021 09:23

[quote Yawnthisway]A point to make here- it is unlikely caster is biologically relate to her child in anyway. It is very rare that people with 46 xy dsd have functional sperm and normally the testes are removed on discovery as they have a high risk of becoming cancerous. It’s not just normal male testicals in hiding.

Also It’s not on to refer to caster as “he”, can we stay respectful please ? I am as gender critical as they come but I’m not convinced by the evidence presented here that implies she was raised a man. Yes in U.K. lack of periods and breast development would raise some red flags but a hard training sprinter could explain it away. A school photo of someone in trousers is not evidence that someone spent their childhood as a boy. When exactly do you think they “switched back” and hoped no one would out them? And I think I saw a post earlier on implying she has a penis? Come on.

I don’t think it’s quite as clear cut as some would like it to be. People are seeing the Y chromosome and acting like that means she’s a man in disguise but my understanding is that her exact condition isn’t publicised? Her lawyer has stated she has 46 xy dsd which in literature is also refered to as 46 xy female and is an “umbrella” condition which can range from internal testicals that produce sperm to Fallopian tubes and a uterus (that are non functioning).

If I’m wrong on casters exact condition being published can someone link me? Because I see it repeated with confidence on Mumsnet and I only find that she’s 46 xy on google.

As a precedent, Martínez-Patiño was found to have this in the late 80’s and was banned then allowed to compete after she was found to have no advantage due to insensitivity to testosterone. This doesn’t sound the same as caster of she wouldn’t mind suppressing her testosterone but it does show the condition has a range.

rarediseases.info.nih.gov/diseases/8538/46-xy-disorders-of-sexual-development[/quote]
Quite. How can you claim to be critical of gender roles, yet use the fact that someone is wearing trousers and shirt to ‘prove’ that they grew up a boy?

InvisibleDragon · 25/04/2021 09:26

As everyone keeps pointing out, Caster is referring to herself as a women with a genetic condition that causes extra testosterone. I think it’s incredibly unlikely she would risk highlighting the fact that she has male working testicals by undergoing a medical procedure to father children. And we have no evidence she even has functioning testicals! I have tried searching literature for examples /studies of people who have fathered children with her condition but found nothing. Just literature explaining why sperm viability would be extremely unlikely.

Slightly off the main topic, but I just wanted to correct this. Caster Semenya has 5-ARD or 5-alpha reductase deficiency. Her condition is that she is genetically XY (male) and has testes that make testosterone, but lacks the enzyme that converts testosterone into dihydrotestosterone. That is known and is explained in the CAS document linked earlier in the thread.

Pre-birth development of male genitalia is mostly driven by DHT, so people with 5-ARD have ambiguous or female-presenting genitalia at birth. However, puberty is mostly driven by testosterone, so people with 5-ARD go through a regular male puberty, with associated changes to body composition, shape etc.

Regarding ability to have children, people with 5-ARD have varying abilities to produce viable sperm and therefore to father children. They may have a lower sperm count and the sperm may have reduced motility; but fertility can be possible either through intra-uterine fertilization or IVF:

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4031759/

Reports of paternity through natural conception and intrauterine insemination reveal the degree of variability in spermatogenesis of affected males (47). Males found to have normal or near normal sperm concentrations and reasonable motility should first attempt intrauterine insemination (IUI). Most often, the semen analysis of affected males reveals severe oligoasthenoteratospermia, low semen volume, and failure of the semen to liquefy, precluding paternity through insemination. IVF/ICSI is the appropriate treatment for these patients (48). The first reported case of paternity through IUI involved a 36-year-old Dominican male homozygous for a thymidine-to-cytosine substitution in exon 5 of the 5α-reductase-2 gene. At birth he was noted to have ambiguous genitalia and bilaterally descended testicles. During puberty, he underwent deepening of the voice and penile enlargement to a stretched length of 3.5cm. Testicular volume, 25mL on the right and 20mL on the left, was normal and the prostate gland was not palpable. At age 34 he was treated with 25mg of topical DHT cream for 7 months, achieving a final penile length of 7.5cm. His wife was an unrelated healthy female with normal menstrual cycles and sequencing of her 5α-reductase-2 gene revealed no abnormalities. Semen analysis revealed low semen volumes but normal concentrations and motility. All specimens were noted to be extremely viscous with initial semen volumes ranging from 0.2–0.5mL, with concentrations ranging from 65 to 350 × 106mL, and motility ranges of 33–61%. Each semen sample was prepared in the standard fashion using a Percoll gradient and final pellet resuspension in 0.5mL of fresh medium.

After appropriate genetic counseling, the subject’s wife was monitored in a natural cycle and an intrauterine insemination was performed 25 hours following the LH surge. Conception occurred on the third attempt to achieve the first pregnancy and on the second attempt to achieve the second pregnancy. The initial pregnancy resulted in premature rupture of the membranes at 33 weeks followed by a cesarean section resulting in a healthy male with normal external genitalia. The second pregnancy resulted in healthy male and female dizygotic twins delivered via repeat cesarean section.

Paternity through IVF has also been reported in a 33-year-old Dominican male with the identical thymidine-to-cytosine substitution known to be common in the Dominican kindred. This patient’s testes did not descend until puberty. His stretched penile length was 5cm. He was noted to have testicular volumes of 14mL and 16mL of right testicle and left testicle, respectively. Initial sperm counts were unquantifiable owing to the high degree of semen viscosity and failure to liquefy. Semen volumes were 0.1mL, sperm density of 8.4×106 mL, and motility of less than 1%. His wife was an unrelated normally menstruating female without 5α-reductase-2 gene abnormalities. Following appropriate genetic counseling, she underwent luteal suppression and stimulation with 200 IU/d of recombinant FSH. Ovulation was triggered on the twelfth day with 5,000 IU hCG when two lead 17mm follicles were present. Four of nine mature oocytes were fertilized with intracytoplasmic sperm injection. Two eight-cell embryos were transferred on day 3, resulting in a twin gestation. Premature rupture of the membranes occurred at 36 weeks of gestation and a healthy male and female were delivered via cesarean section. These examples highlight both the variability in semen parameters in men with 5α-reductase-2 gene mutation as well as the need for individualization in choosing the appropriate treatment regimens.

Kotatsu · 25/04/2021 09:29

Quite. How can you claim to be critical of gender roles, yet use the fact that someone is wearing trousers and shirt to ‘prove’ that they grew up a boy?

Because being critical of it, doesn't change reality. I was forced to wear a skirt for all of primary school, and strongly socially pressured to wear a skirt in my second secondary school (I would have been the only girl in trousers if I hadn't given in). Look at pictures now of schools anywhere, including South Africa - uniforms are distinct for boys and girls.

NecessaryScene1 · 25/04/2021 09:30

it’s likely that true fertility is hard to ascertain given many parents were encouraged to raise their children as girls including hormone manipulation at puberty and removal of internal testes.

Truth of that would depend on time period and location.

It is apparently the case that in Africa, 5-ARD individuals are more frequently not spotted at birth due to limited testing, leading to actual sex not being known for certain until male puberty hits. Early intervention to "assign" them female in the way you describe would not be that common.

And that lack of spotting is why scouting for them for athletics has proven effective - they will be there with their female birth certificates qualifying them for athletics. A UK 5-ARD individual is unlikely to have been assigned female at birth like Semenya was.

(And this is finally a correct usage of "assigned" - Semenya is male, but was assigned female at birth. "Assigned" is not synonymous with actual sex).

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