Caster Semanya Guardian Interview

[GrimDamnFanjo]

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/apr/23/caster-semenya-theyre-killing-sport-people-want-extraordinary-performances

Interesting article but still maintains DSD is just a matter of testosterone differences.

@Yawnthisway little was known about Caster's condition until the CAS ruling but it is all there in detail.

I hate CS being used to justify males in female sport. But I don't think they had a clear policy about VSDs.

But if you take the two groups of males wanting to compete in women’s sport - 46XY DSDs like Semenya and transwomen - activists cannot square their own circle. They say:

“Semenya’s birth certificate says ‘female’ so she should be allowed to compete in the women’s competition!”

While also saying:

“It doesn’t matter that [insert name of transwoman]’s birth certificate says ‘male’, she should be allowed to compete in the women’s competition!”

As usual, it’s a logic failure.

I personally feel in the absence of any rational policy suggesting otherwise, CS should be able to compete in women's events without changing testosterone levels. And if women with DSDs are being scouted for sport - good.

I would suspect that much is known by the sporting organizations where Caster competes now. I read that the OIC will be reviewing their policies about trans inclusion again after the Olympics in light of the new studies, so it may be that decisions regarding how Caster competes will also be made.

This is a hard case to adjudicate I would think. However, with the studies and reviews now coming in on the part testosterone plays in sports and in bodies,

That Caster has had the benefit of testosterone beyond female range cannot be ignored. That they are also unwilling to reduce that testosterone to compete also needs to be addressed. With science.

When people argue for inclusion based on aspects other than science, where do you draw the line? On what basis?

And why, exactly, would someone with a testosterone advantage get priority over those without?

Crossed with *notbad’ I see

There is consistency in the CAS ruling, though. It’s not just limited to Caster’s disorder.

It states that if an athlete with a DSD has XY chromosomes AND is androgen sensitive (ie benefits from a male puberty) then they need to suppress their testosterone to compete in female events.

Personally, I don’t think they should be competing against women at all, given the advantage a male puberty confers.

The Court of Arbitration of Sport Ruling is well worth reading.
www.tas-cas.org/fileadmin/user_upload/CAS_Executive_Summary__5794_.pdf?fbclid=IwAR0D_yFNIGmgcByO7PpwXIxuhIj0W6YzfeOVnuou9B8RIclp_Bsmrwkj8QE

"Accordingly, the purpose of the male-female divide in competitive athletics is not to
protect athletes with a female legal sex from having to compete against athletes with a
male legal sex. Nor is it to protect athletes with a female gender identity from having to
compete against athletes with a male gender identity. Rather, it is to protect individuals
whose bodies have developed in a certain way following puberty from having to compete
against individuals who, by virtue of their bodies having developed in a different way
following puberty, possess certain physical traits that create such a significant
performance advantage that fair competition between the two groups is not possible. In
most cases, the former group comprises individuals with a female legal sex and a female
gender identity, while the latter group comprises individuals with a male legal sex and
male gender identity. However, this is not true of all cases. Natural human biology does
not map perfectly onto legal status and gender identity. The imperfect alignment between
nature, law and identity is what gives rise to the conundrum at the heart of this case."

"It was common ground between the parties that there is a substantial difference in elite
sports performance between males and females. It was also common ground that (a) the
normal female range of serum testosterone, produced mainly in the ovaries and adrenal
glands, is 0.06 to 1.68 nmol/L; and (b) the normal male range of serum testosterone
concentration, produced mainly in the testes, is 7.7 to 29.4 nmol/L. On the basis of the
scientific evidence presented by the parties, the Panel unanimously finds that endogenous
testosterone is the primary driver of the sex difference in sports performance between
males and females."

"Having carefully considered the expert evidence, the majority of the Panel concludes that
androgen sensitive female athletes with 46 XY DSD enjoy a significant performance
advantage over other female athletes without such DSD, and that this advantage is
attributable to their exposure to levels of circulating testosterone in the normal adult male
range, rather than the normal adult female range. The majority of the Panel observes that
the evidence concerning the performances and statistical over-representation of female
athletes with 46 XY DSD in certain Relevant Events demonstrates that the elevated
testosterone levels that such athletes possess creates a significant and often determinative
performance advantage over other female athletes who do not have a 46 XY DSD
condition."

[quote Helleofabore]I believe Caster is 5ARD

www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/jun/18/caster-semenya-iaaf-athletics-guinea-pig

This twitter thread may be useful

twitter.com/fondofbeetles/status/1230568153047945217?s=21[/quote]
Thank you.

I still believe she was raised female and we should respect her wish to be referred to as female. But it does make the ruling crystal clear.

The fact that she would even be competitive after 10(?) years shows she is not an average athlete.

It is also completely irrelevant to bring up height, weight, arm span etc while ignoring the part testosterone has played in someone’s body development.

The science has been proven, it was merely proving what was known. And Caster Semenya knows all this.

Michael Phelps’s arms are wide enough for him to do whatever he wants. Swimmers’ lungs are different to other people’s. Basketball players like LeBron James are tall. If all the tall players are banned from playing, will basketball be the same? Usain has amazing muscle fibres. Are they going to stop him, too? My organs may be different and I may have a deep voice, but I am a woman.

To bring Phelps in and other people with natural advantages that are nothing to do with testosterone is false logic. The fact that they are all males used is telling.

The fact that Caster refuses to acknowledge their condition gives them advantages in the FEMALE category not the male category is disingenuous by now whereas previously, when little was known, it would have been a valid point.

It is a hard decision for the bodies to make, but it needs to be fair and based on fact not emotion.

The fact that she would even be competitive after 10(?) years shows she is not an average athlete.

Yes, it is just another ‘tell’ that Caster knows a great deal about their condition and it’s advantages.

No one who has the possibility, however speculative, of providing sperm to father children should be eligible for women’s sport.

Yawnthisway

I do think it is wrong to speculate here.

However, it also becomes quite apparent that there is plenty of conflicting anecdotal evidence about the way Caster lives and how they view themselves. I think there is a very large degree of ‘curation’ around Caster Semenya’s public life and the media to match a certain narrative.

I see Caster's point though. We don't ban really tall people from competing in the high jump, or basket ball. I'm 5'2". I could never excel at those sports. Is that fair? Some people are born with webbing between their fingers or toes. Would they be banned from swimming? There are probably lots of other examples where physique aids prowess in a particular sport

Some people are just naturally born male. Should they be banned from women’s sports?

Either we have women’s sports or we don’t.

Exactly, notbad

There is no logic in a position that says:

The “F” on Caster’s birth certificate must be held to be definitive, despite the evidence that subsequently came to light about Caster’s sex.

The “M” on Laurel Hubbard’s birth certificate must not be held to be definitive, because of the evidence that subsequently came to light about Hubbard’s gender identity.

These two positions are entirely antithetical. One says “this attribute cannot be changed”, and the other says “this attribute must be changed”.

The twisting and obfuscation should be enough to convince anyone interested in critical thinking, necessary, and isn’t it endlessly gobsmacking that it doesn’t seem to be?

@nolongersurprised

There is consistency in the CAS ruling, though. It’s not just limited to Caster’s disorder.

It states that if an athlete with a DSD has XY chromosomes AND is androgen sensitive (ie benefits from a male puberty) then they need to suppress their testosterone to compete in female events.

Personally, I don’t think they should be competing against women at all, given the advantage a male puberty confers.

Yes, the ruling was actually beyond fair for Caster. Suppressing testosterone was really the least she could do.

Caster Semenya should be the test case for why XY people (or those with DSD’s but a chromosomal male with testosterone advantage) should not be allowed to compete in women’s sport. The 800 metres podium line up is horrendously depressing. 3 women lost out on medals that day.

I don’t see anything feminist in saying CS should be included in women’s sport. CS knows they have an advantage and why and has done since the age of 18. Most likely well before as per the article. At this age, they could have done something different with their life instead of laughing at women.

Erik Schinneger transitioned to male because in the 60’s, it would have been unthinkable to say you’re female when you know you’re not. The world of the 2020’s is a very different place.

No one who has the possibility, however speculative, of providing sperm to father children should be eligible for women’s sport.

In a weird hypothetical universe, that wouldn't necessarily follow as a principle. It's the body we care about, not the fertility.

But given human development, yes. If you are sufficiently virilised to produce sperm you will also have a significant degree of body virilisation affecting sport performance. There is no DSD that gives you a male reproductive system without an overall male physique.

As per the ruling, Semenya was allowed to go higher or lower. Semenya chose higher, raced the 5000m, and still beat women. A woman is not South African 5000m champion as a result. Glenrose Xaba.

Semenya should not be allowed to compete against women at all. There is nothing that makes Semenya eligible. Semenya should not have to suppress testosterone because of the health implications, and suppressing testosterone in a male does not a woman make.

@R0wantrees

I disagree that Castor is a victim here. Castor took an opportunity (which I don't blame them for) and has deliberately not been candid.

There's been a great deal of deliberate emotional manipulation of the the press etc.

I think this bears repeating.

I also agree that anyone who has male gonads should not be in women’s sports.

Transgender is not the same as intersex.

As everyone keeps pointing out, Caster is referring to herself as a women with a genetic condition that causes extra testosterone. I think it’s incredibly unlikely she would risk highlighting the fact that she has male working testicals by undergoing a medical procedure to father children. And we have no evidence she even has functioning testicals! I have tried searching literature for examples /studies of people who have fathered children with her condition but found nothing. Just literature explaining why sperm viability would be extremely unlikely.

So can we stick to facts? It’s not even relevant if she’s fathered children or is sympathetic character. She could be hyper feminine presenting and I still wouldn’t think she should be in women’s sports.

@Sophoclesthefox

Exactly, notbad

There is no logic in a position that says:

The “F” on Caster’s birth certificate must be held to be definitive, despite the evidence that subsequently came to light about Caster’s sex.

The “M” on Laurel Hubbard’s birth certificate must not be held to be definitive, because of the evidence that subsequently came to light about Hubbard’s gender identity.

These two positions are entirely antithetical. One says “this attribute cannot be changed”, and the other says “this attribute must be changed”.

The twisting and obfuscation should be enough to convince anyone interested in critical thinking, necessary, and isn’t it endlessly gobsmacking that it doesn’t seem to be?

These people don’t operate on logic, but emotion. It doesn’t ‘feel’ fair to them for whatever emotional reason.

Unfortunately Caster and other DSD athletes have become a sort of Trojan horse because yes, if Caster can compete as an XY male, then why can’t a transwoman?

The current ruling stops it short because it limits XY category participation to DSDs with testosterone limits, so a normal XY male with low T won’t be eligible thankfully.