Keira Bell and Tavistock Appeal 29th June

[AdHominemNonSequitur]

Saw on Twitter.

twitter.com/lascapigliata8/status/1385333087547101184
I think costs are escallating.

You know this, and to campaign against helping trans kids avoid this makes you child abusers

It would seem to me that you don't have a strong understanding of what child abuse really means. 🤷

Calling those concerned about untested, experimental medication being used on children before they understand the lifelong impact this may have on their health, their fertility and their sex lives "child abusers'???

No wonder the tide is turning against those adults determined to inflict this on children.

@EdgeOfACoin

Donated. If you do, don't forget to remove the tip for CrowdJustice.

Just wanted to point out that the last few times I donated they took the £2.50 'tip' anyway. It took me a while to figure it out because it's converting to euros in my account, so I didn't know the exchange rate etc.

I emailed to complain, and they just said it must be an error blah blah, to take a screen shot next time I donate and they'll look into it.

Just wanted to let people know to keep an eye out for it. I definitely deselected the £2.50

Just popping by to say anyone who is in support of Keira Bell may like to have a look at the MN petitions board if they haven’t been there recently.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/petitions_noticeboard

@NotBadConsidering

The average male child, who you might call a “trans girl” if left alone and supported through puberty will grow up to be happy with their body:

www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyt.2021.632784/full

This has long been known and this study supports this. Children should be able to consent to decisions that will lead them to undertake puberty blockers, cross sex hormones and their consequences. Do you think they can understand? If they can meet the criteria set out by the judges, then by all means, let them crack on:

i) the immediate consequences of the treatment in physical and psychological terms;
(ii) the fact that the vast majority of patients taking puberty blocking drugs proceed to taking cross-sex hormones and are, therefore, a pathway to much greater medical interventions;
(iii) the relationship between taking cross-sex hormones and subsequent surgery, with the implications of such surgery;
(iv) the fact that cross-sex hormones may well lead to a loss of fertility;
(v) the impact of cross-sex hormones on sexual function;
(vi) the impact that taking this step on this treatment pathway may have on future and life-long relationships;
(vii) the unknown physical consequences of taking puberty blocking drugs; and
(viii) the fact that the evidence base for this treatment is as yet highly uncertain

Do you understand consent?

Did you really quote Zucker? That won't really help your case.

You might want to read this:

twitter.com/rozietoez/status/1376813964907008001

Did you really quote Zucker? That won't really help your case.

No arguments again Shiz? What a surprise.

We have known the problem for years.

Here's some refreshing honesty from a possibly surprising source, one Stephen Whittle, speaking at the committee stage of the Equality Bill as recorded in Hansard way back in 2009

"This is another of our big problem areas. The legislation covers young people through various protections, but the problem is that “gender reassignment” is an absolutely inappropriate term to use in relation to young people. If someone rings me up about their 11-year-old with cross-gendered behaviour, and the school wants them out, what should I do? Should I say, “Let me speak to the 11-year-old,” and then explain that the child wants a sex change?

Thirteen and 14-year-olds who make that statement get entwined in a huge, goal-driven medical process that does not let them get out, yet we know that 80 per cent. of young people who manifest very cross-gendered behaviour will not grow up to be trans but will grow up to be gay or lesbian.
We need to rethink that.

Again, we have come up with a phrase and a definition that we think would suit. It is gender-varied and carefully defined and would fit into the framework."

publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200809/cmpublic/equality/090602/pm/90602s01.htm

2 June 2009 pm 2nd session
Speaking on behalf of Press for Change at the committee stage of the Equality Bill

Once more, that's a "huge, goal-driven medical process that does not let them get out, yet we know that 80 per cent. of young people who manifest very cross-gendered behaviour will not grow up to be trans but will grow up to be gay or lesbian"

To think there are organisations now in 2021 thinking they are the good guys for wanting to facilitate this??

Off to donate again

@OldCrone

Did you really quote Zucker? That won't really help your case.

No arguments again Shiz? What a surprise.

I literally posted the argument - it's in the link. Why don't you click it?

@Shizuku

Remind me - is Keira Bell the woman who was devastated by the effects of testosterone on her body, and now wants to make sure that trans girls suffer the way she has?

Oh just give over, you bloody fool. I'm actually beyond worrying about deletion at this point. You have an agenda so transparent it's nauseating. It's unfortunate (for you) that your points make so very little sense.

I seem to remember that there was a court settlement of hundreds of thousands of dollars, and apology to Zucker, plus 500 or so colleagues signed a petition in support.

Oh yes I was right

As part of the settlement with CAMH – which was finalized last week, and is not confidential – he will also receive more than half-a-million dollars in damages, legal fees and interest. The centre also agreed to pass on his contact information to anyone seeking it.

www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/toronto/article-doctor-fired-from-gender-identity-clinic-says-he-feels-vindicated/

[quote Leafstamp]Just popping by to say anyone who is in support of Keira Bell may like to have a look at the MN petitions board if they haven’t been there recently.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/petitions_noticeboard[/quote]
thanks, have done so.

@ArcheryAnnie

Donated. (Not much, but it all helps.)

All these oranisations that claim to support dysphoric young people - and then they put Keira through the mill yet again. They ought to be ashamed of themselves.

This is what I thought too when I saw the update. The details that came out in court. The lack of evidence that the clinic put forward. The NICE evidence review finding a very week evidence base. And all these organisations are lining up to overturn the ruling.

If it's true that the lawyers for children organisation (can't remember it's name) has a neutral stance, then I find it odd that they are intervening. How will it work? If they don't have a view on whether the ruling should stand what will they be adding?

I really hope the interventions are published.

The arguement you posted on twitter calls Zucker Transphobic repeatedly and then agrees that lots of kids who present at Gender clinics with identity disorder were probably not trans at all. This is in complete accordance with most people on here, and exactly why it is important to not mindlessly affirm every child who walks through the door and say s they are trans.

It is very apparent to those reading these threads that some posters have an agenda that is not focused on females at all. When they start discussing transition, it seems to always, always be about male transition and it neglects to ever address the immediate, short and long term effects of female transition.

In fact, most of the time the female experience is minimised or hand waved away.

It is obvious to the readers that the female experience and risk is ignored in pursuit of the end goal for the other sex with less risk (although, plenty risk enough to have merited three high court judges declaring the process is not able to understood by either sex).

once you see it though... you cannot unseen it

Agree absolutely that the intervention positions should be published, it's interesting to me that neither ALC not Liberty, that I can see, make reference to their interventions on their webpages or social media - not had chance to look at the other organisations. In my experience, being involved in such a campaign is generally an opportunity for publicity.

[quote Leafstamp]Just popping by to say anyone who is in support of Keira Bell may like to have a look at the MN petitions board if they haven’t been there recently.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/petitions_noticeboard[/quote]
Thanks for this - I have just donated again to Keira's cause.

Thank you for posting. Have donated what I can.

@DisappearingGirl

Thanks, I've donated again. I think this is so important.

I can't believe Keira and Mrs A are having to do this. It should be health services and governments around the world taking a serious look at this, not two individuals having to do it. I am happy to fund it as much as I can, to protect future children.

Yes, this is what’s so very, very wrong.

Keira and Mrs A should not have to crowd fund for this. Their costs should be coming out of the public purse. This is about child protection. That shouldn't be something that is left to the efforts and goodwill of private individuals. It’s a statutory obligation, but one which the statutory orgs are singularly avoiding and even obstructing.

We as taxpayers are having to foot the bill for a good part of the costs on the other side, the NHS trusts at least, and pay as private individuals towards the costs of the side we actually support and believe in if there is to be any chance of justice being done here. Double taxation.

It’s truly scandalous.

And I can’t help being worried seeing all those orgs ranged against Keira and Mrs A this time. I cried with relief when I read the judgment last time, when those judges said what we all knew to be true, that children of that age cannot actually give informed consent to the consequences of this course of action.

Given all the capitulation we’ve seen, it was just so wonderful that there were people in authority who were still talking the language of sanity, reason, common sense. Above all, of reality.

It gave me hope that our legal system hadn’t been so captured, so tainted by this collective delusion, that we could actually look to it for real protection against the ever increasing advances of genderist ideology.

But now? Are these “experts” going to persuade them otherwise?

I have dug again, anyway. And I’m sending all my love and support to Keira and Mrs A. Hoping so much for the right outcome.

@Helleofabore

It is very apparent to those reading these threads that some posters have an agenda that is not focused on females at all. When they start discussing transition, it seems to always, always be about male transition and it neglects to ever address the immediate, short and long term effects of female transition.

In fact, most of the time the female experience is minimised or hand waved away.

It is obvious to the readers that the female experience and risk is ignored in pursuit of the end goal for the other sex with less risk (although, plenty risk enough to have merited three high court judges declaring the process is not able to understood by either sex).

once you see it though... you cannot unseen it

It is very apparent, isn’t it.

It’s like some people value the wishes and feelings of biologically male people far, far above the rights, needs and safety of biologically female people. I see that as a form of male supremacism. Ugly, misogynistic, and as old as time. Or patriarchy, at any rate.

Grown women are being treated like kids who don't know their own minds, and young children are being treated like adults wise enough to know for certain how they'll feel about their decision in years to come.

Exactly this, yourhair. We’re properly in the Upside Down.

What I don't understand about this case is that TRAs want us to believe in the 'lived experience' of trans people - but this doesn't seem to extend to Keira. Her 'lived experience' is that she was given treatment that harmed her without adequate counselling or consideration of whether she, as a child, was able to meaningfully consent to the treatment.

So is she still using the name Quincy for the purpose of the litigation or did she switch to Keira now?

What's your point, PumpkinSpice?