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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Could you stay married to a TRA?

395 replies

SapphosRock · 22/04/2021 15:44

She believes TWAW, their feelings are more important than women’s rights and some lesbians have penises. Get over it. She was on here once upon a time but got permanently banned.
Everything else about the relationship is wonderful. Can we get past this? It seems like a stupid reason to get divorced. Our values used to be fairly similar but she’s got heavily involved in trans activism and I have gone the other way. Sorry for the pity party, just feel quite down about it today. Has anyone else been through similar?

OP posts:
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zzizzer · 23/04/2021 12:00

Wtf is with the smiley karma comment?

OldLang · 23/04/2021 12:04

@zzizzer

Another kool-aid drinker I'm sure.

Sorry to hear about this @Saphos. I've no answer but hope you find some solace in the support here.

Dozer · 23/04/2021 12:10

IMO, all else being good, even a big disagreement like this could be managed by not discussing the matter with each other, and agreeing handling with respect to the DCs.

ArabellaScott · 23/04/2021 12:12

@SapphosRock

Oh *@PrawnofthePatriarchy* I'm so sorry for your loss. Losing a parent is terribly hard, no matter how peaceful. It was my late DM who introduced me to feminism and we would have the best talks, I'd give anything to be able to talk to her right now.
Flowers
Silvergreen · 23/04/2021 12:33

'good advice! If only it were that simple'

Honestly - I'm seeing lesbian relationships and friendships torn apart on this and it is just so sad. I really hope you can work past and around it and I mean that sincerely.

SapphosRock · 23/04/2021 12:43

@zzizzer

Wtf is with the smiley karma comment?

Don't you know the rules? 'Be kind' never applies to women, especially not lesbians.

OP posts:
AgathaAllAlong · 23/04/2021 13:06

I would have no problem with this. I agree with you on this particular topic, but really, it's just an argument about an empirical fact or way of understanding the categories that we use to carve up the world - she thinks that 'woman' means something different. It's not that you have different values per se. Me and partner have disagreed about topics like this in the past, and I wouldn't be bothered if he decided that TWAW.

Overall though, if you are considering divorce over this I would bet that your relationship is not happy, and so divorce might be on the cards anyway.

Zeev · 23/04/2021 13:44

@AgathaAllAlong

I would have no problem with this. I agree with you on this particular topic, but really, it's just an argument about an empirical fact or way of understanding the categories that we use to carve up the world - she thinks that 'woman' means something different. It's not that you have different values per se. Me and partner have disagreed about topics like this in the past, and I wouldn't be bothered if he decided that TWAW.

Overall though, if you are considering divorce over this I would bet that your relationship is not happy, and so divorce might be on the cards anyway.

If you cannot agree on what words and concepts mean, how can you share the same values?

Besides, it's much more than semantics. OP already posted that her wife would gladly transport their children abroad for puberty blockers, should they want some. That is a huge issue.

BodyMovin · 23/04/2021 13:56

I'm quite intrigued by what it's like being a transman in Brighton. I have a few gay male friends who live there. I don't see that they'd ever fully accept a transman (although last time I checked most still thought TWAW, obvs). Maybe it says more about my particular friends than life there in general. But for instance there was an outdoor spot my friend wouldn't let my kids wander into and he showed me from a bit further away it was an area for men to have random hook ups. We could see lots of separate men, but I think they'd go into the bushes or elsewhere for the sex. Fine, I guess. But do transmen go their too?

midgedude · 23/04/2021 14:38

There is a value judgement embedded in TWAW that is saying womanhood is a state of mind . I get pretty pissed off/insulted with anyone who thinks my mind is that of a woman where woman isn't being defined by sex

I know that sounds insulting to women, and in a way it is. The whole idea that the female mind is different to the male mind , and that is always linked to the assumptions of inferiority . And certainly often used to restrict the options given to women and to belittle their achievements. Because of their female mind. But since I don't believe in woman mind it's not me being insulting but people who state TWAW

TinselAngel · 23/04/2021 17:21

I never did (and still don't) think public toilets are a big deal. I thought this was a reasonable position.

Many women do think they are a big deal though.

And to think they are not a big deal, privileges the rights of certain males, who think it is a big enough deal, that they want to come into our toilets.

I wonder if you and your wife are not actually as far apart as you think?

Ninkanink · 23/04/2021 17:24

Yes, I have to say that did grate on me.

It absolutely is a big deal.

SapphosRock · 23/04/2021 17:46

Let me clarify, decisions to turn female single sex facilities into unisex facilities in the name of inclusivity is a very big deal and I do have a problem with this.

I have no problem with a trans women who is caught short in public using the ladies loo if there is no unisex option.

OP posts:
MichelleofzeResistance · 23/04/2021 17:52

I have a problem for the female people who have to quietly leave the female facilities and have no access at all regardless of how short they are caught so the TW can take their preferred option of the two facilities.

There isn't any way to make a snatch and grab raid on female people's needs ok. A TW in desperate need still isn't more important than those females.

MichelleofzeResistance · 23/04/2021 17:53

Think of it this way - you don't expect the TW to overcome their feelings and use the sex based facilities wholly available to them.

You do expect the female people to suck up their feelings, needs, barriers, issues...... and just deal.

JediGnot · 23/04/2021 17:54

@TinselAngel

I never did (and still don't) think public toilets are a big deal. I thought this was a reasonable position.

Many women do think they are a big deal though.

And to think they are not a big deal, privileges the rights of certain males, who think it is a big enough deal, that they want to come into our toilets.

I wonder if you and your wife are not actually as far apart as you think?

I don't think everyone needs to agree on everything.

"I never did (and still don't) think public toilets are a big deal."

"Many women do think they are a big deal though."

You're not even disagreeing. I can't believe Sapphos would insist toilets aren't a big deal in the face of evidence (if it exists) that huge numbers of women do. Equally Tinsel might think they're a big deal, but I'd guess she'd think that it's a trivial issue in comparison to rapists in women's prisons or the inability to discuss the issues without being accused of bigotry.

I'm not trying to speak for either of you, but I don't think that you're that far apart!

MichelleofzeResistance · 23/04/2021 17:59

I think it all comes down to one common denominator.

The 'big' issues just means it's fine to privilege male interests over female ones until it's something serious enough to remember that females are human too and it's gone a bit far against them. Basically and fundamentally sexist and discriminatory.

Either everyone matters or equality/inclusion is a whole lot of bullshit just about privileging the currently most special group. Females aren't here to suck up the tough stuff to protect everyone else.

SapphosRock · 23/04/2021 18:00

MichelleofzeResistance in my experience, women are much more likely to come across a male toilet attendant than a TW in female public loos. In the grand scheme of things I don't think TW using the ladies loo is the most pressing issue women are facing. As Jedi says I think it detracts attention from the big stuff like rapists in women's prisons. I'm not stubborn though and I've been wrong before.

OP posts:
TinselAngel · 23/04/2021 18:04

Equally Tinsel might think they're a big deal, but I'd guess she'd think that it's a trivial issue in comparison to rapists in women's prisons or the inability to discuss the issues without being accused of bigotry.

You guess wrong. I am able to be concerned about more than one thing at once.

TinselAngel · 23/04/2021 18:07

Actually I think I've misunderstood you Jedi, apologies.

My point is that to airily dismiss the concerns of many women and thus privilege the rights of the males who cause those concerns, shows a willingness to prioritise men and dismiss women that the OP may find familiar from her wife's opinions.

It's a pattern of thinking that is difficult to get out of.

midgedude · 23/04/2021 18:17

In think this shows that despite having a viewpoint that is clearly tolerant of TW, Saphos is having huge relationship problems over this

PermanentTemporary · 23/04/2021 18:38

Can you just not talk about it between you, and agree a strict 'some people believe' framing from both of you to the children?

It sounds as if you would use preferred pronouns, which may be what she was worried about re her friends. Other than that, much of the argument you're describing is in fact theoretical. I would try just to shelve it. I feel very strongly on this subject BTW.

NewlyGranny · 23/04/2021 18:42

Oddly, I never mind a male attendant in the Ladies'. I know why he's there, he's not hanging around with evil intent and he's keeping it nice and fresh for us. I don't mind a transwoman who's presenting as female slipping in and using the space the way women do: for a wee etc, a hand-wash, a make-up and hair check, an outfit repair, a giggle with a friend, a confidential chat or a private weep. Most of all I don't mind someone slipping in to avoid a male sex pest or angry violent stranger. No issue at all with any of that.

My issue is the conversion to unisex status which prevents all of us - women and transwoman - having our peace and privacy for all the above activities more or less assured.

Yes, of course a violent or predatory man could barge in to the Ladies', but he'd be challenged and help could be sought. If the toilet is officially unisex, he has a right to be there even if he's pursuing a reluctant acquaintance or unsuspecting stranger or a child. He'll get further and do more damage. If transwomen are nervous of using the Gents', how does it help to invite all of the gents in?!

There's a reason lone fathers are apt to lurk outside the Ladies' and ask a woman to escort their daughter in with her. And there's a reason mother's bring their little boys into the Ladies' with them even when they get a bit too old for it. Predatory men exist and you don't know when they're about as they don't wear labels.

Unisex toilets just make everyone equally unsafe and remove a refuge many of us value highly and have needed badly at some point.

Ninkanink · 23/04/2021 18:46

It absolutely is not theoretical! Honestly how can people still be saying this?? It’s not! It’s directly affecting women now, today, in law and legislation, in social settings and at work, as well as children in schools and young people at university, and is only going to get much, much worse if push back isn’t strong enough. Calling it theoretical is really dangerous, dismissive and entirely incorrect.

@SapphosRock I’m going to leave this thread now as I would hate to get into too much discussion of the wider issues and ramifications. But I do wish you strength. I absolutely could not stay in a relationship like yours and I’m not sure I should wish you luck in doing so. But I do hope you manage to figure out what’s right for you and the best way to handle this on behalf of your children.

Nellodee · 23/04/2021 18:48

I think agreeing to not indoctrinate your children one way or the other is absolutely key, and totally possible.

I was brought up without any religious indoctrination and turned out strongly atheist. It was not until I was well into my twenties that I found out that my mother was Christian and my father was agnostic, wavering towards Christian. I was incredibly shocked, and at first disappointed, but as I have grown older I think it was a very thoughtful way to bring us up.

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