Could you stay married to a TRA?

[SapphosRock]

She believes TWAW, their feelings are more important than women’s rights and some lesbians have penises. Get over it. She was on here once upon a time but got permanently banned.
Everything else about the relationship is wonderful. Can we get past this? It seems like a stupid reason to get divorced. Our values used to be fairly similar but she’s got heavily involved in trans activism and I have gone the other way. Sorry for the pity party, just feel quite down about it today. Has anyone else been through similar?

"She's like the kid desparately to fit in with the cool gang and is happy to shit on you amd anyone else out there in the process to do achieve their approval."

Well put.

I think that's unfair tbh. Plenty of people who are clever and kind etc are fully on board with it. Dismissing them in that way gets us nowhere. Why do sensible intelligent women have these views? It's important to understand. I can't understand it at all.

Sapphos used to be v TWAW. She says she slowly realised that it didn't make sense etc.

So I suppose question to Sapphos is why you used to feel that way.

I can't advise or have an opinion, Sapphos, but I'm sorry you are going through this.

I used to think the TWAW mantra was pretty harmless as long as organisations felt able to apply the Equality Act exceptions when it mattered for single sex provisions. In particular making women's refuges and organised sport single sex. I never did (and still don't) think public toilets are a big deal. I thought this was a reasonable position.

I thought TRAs were only mad people found online and most reasonable people would agree that women's sport and women's refuges need to be single sex and that's not hateful.

I didn't foresee TRA ideology being enforced in every women's group I'm in, every lesbian group I'm in, in my friendship groups and in my marriage.

Yeah, I used to think being kind and understanding meant that they'd be kind and understanding back. They're the modern day equivalent of colonists though, and we're the natives who need "educating" into their doctrines.

Hand hold @SapphosRock. I've read many of your posts and have seen how your views have changed over time. It must be incredibly hard to be so at odds with the woman you love.

I just want to pedantically pick up on something some OPs have said, and that I've seen elsewhere online, about respecting different opinions. I think respect is an unnecessarily high bar. I know it's out of fashion but I think tolerance is a more achievable aim e.g. I can tolerate a person believing humans can change sex but I can't respect it because it is demonstrably false. I'd also like to make the distinction between respecting a person vs respecting their views. I can respect a person, in the round, who believes in something demonstrably false, but that respect would likely take a dent because I would wonder at their critical thinking and incomprehension in a way I hadn't before.

Very best of luck with the counselling, I really hope it works out. I'm glad to hear you've made connections with local feminists. Irl connections are essential

See I don't think this is really true, from sappho's wife's perspective. "She's like the kid desparately to fit in with the cool gang and is happy to shit on you amd anyone else out there in the process to do achieve their approval."

It's more that Sappho and her wife were part of a lovely group of progressive people, happily supporting each other's challenges and changing the world for the better, protecting the vulnerable etc. Sappho suddenly decided to join the bad guys, abandoning her friends and wife and leaving them to fight intolerance alone.

Unfortunately that group was captured and changed its purpose radically, which is why Sappho left, but the people within it didn't notice. They still think they are fighting on the side of the angels, that they are protecting the vulnerable etc. They've been groomed.

There was an interesting programme on fraud on radio 4, about grooming people for fraud purposes, how the fraudster uses emotive language, establishes a scenario where it's not unexpected that they will need to ask for money because it's the nature of the business they are in and a sign of success. They use emotive dramatic language about how much it hurts their soul etc.

It's worth a listen. Join a group, be the neediest person there who needs looking after. Train everyone to protect you at all costs. Put yourself in places you have no right to be and make it known how terrified you are about that, how it hurts your soul to be rejected.... cue everyone dashing to protect you from the situation you should not be in and yet have chosen to be there.

pickleme that radio 4 program sounds really interesting - is it still available to listen to?

To me, the 'desperate to fit in' does apply a bit in this situation, because of the unreasonable behaviour of the friends. If someone publicly calls you a 'Nazi bitch' it is not usually you that has to grovel and apologise. And yet ...

I completely agree with you that this feels like grooming behaviour. Over time the bar is raised higher and higher (or the frog boiled a little more) until you're both condoning (towards others) and accepting (towards yourself) unequivocally abusive and bullying behaviour.

I have a huge amount of sympathy for both Sapphos and her wife, because I've been the boiled frog and it is emotionally very very tough to make a perspective shift from 'these people are my friends and we are fighting for justice' to 'these people are bullies and I have been complicit / participated in abusive behaviour'.

Plenty of people who are clever and kind etc are fully on board with it.

This is the problem, these people are not simply fools. Once people have taken a position, especially a kind one that they get praise for and that is considered progressive, it's incredibly hard to rollback from it.

Who would want to even consider agreeing with hateful bigots?

It's incredibly frustrating that this ideology has so little compassion that it can divide previously close relationships.

I hope you and your wife can tolerate each other's views until this is over. Surely something else will be dominating discussions in 10 years time?

Who would want to even consider agreeing with hateful bigots?

Yes, and that's a lot of the time the reason they get so incandescently angry when they get backed into a corner and their position is exposed for what it is, and how they can maintain such a high level of cognitive dissonance.

It was word of mouth, @InvisibleDragon. Specifically about grooming language in romantic fraud. Fascinating.

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000v91g

I used to think the TWAW mantra was pretty harmless as long as organisations felt able to apply the Equality Act exceptions when it mattered for single sex provisions. In particular making women's refuges and organised sport single sex. I never did (and still don't) think public toilets are a big deal.

As women become aware that the mantra 'TWAW' is far from harmless, that orgnisations cannot and will not apply Equality Act exceptions to protect girls and women's safety, dignity and privacy they also eventually realise that public toilets are a big deal.

This incredibly important and informative speech by Professor Clara Greed should be required viewing:

A Woman's Place is to be heard (Clara Greed, Bath, 1st November 2018)
"Professor Clara Greed is Professor of Inclusive Urban Planning at the University of the West of England, Bristol, and a specialist in toilet provision with particular emphasis upon women's needs."

Oh dear, it does sound like your wife is deeply enmeshed, Sappho. It isn't just a case of differing and very contradictory beliefs, but a whole way of life for her.

Changing her mind or least accepting you haven't been brainwashed, is going to involve walking away from her friends and, it sounds, her entire social life.

Could you move somewhere else? Getting away from that toxic crew to be by yourselves might be your best chance to work things out?

"I just want to pedantically pick up on something some OPs have said, and that I've seen elsewhere online, about respecting different opinions. I think respect is an unnecessarily high bar."

That's an interesting distinction. Maybe I mean more respect that the other person has a different opinion than the opinion itself. I don't think the belief in this case stands up to a moment's logical thought. But then I would say the same of e.g. homeopathy and I still manage to have good friends who are believers or even practitioners.

This particular belief has built in wards to try to prevent believers from thinking about it. Religion does that too in some way, belief itself in the face of doubt is presented as a virtue. Gender belief does that in a more negative way than most religions with even asking questions presented as morally dubious. It sort of makes people police their own thoughts.

For me, whether I could stay with someone would depend on whether I thought their beliefs were a) due to them being bad, mean, stupid, or pretending in order to fit in, or b) whether they were a good person who genuinely believed their approach was the right one.

It very much sounds like your wife is in the b) category and she sounds like a genuinely good person. For me, this would be enough for me to stay with someone, if we agreed on most other important issues and values in life.

I hope this doesn't come across as rude as I love this board and have learned so much here - but I would be wary about using this board as your only source of advice on your relationship. I say this because for many people on here this is the ONE key issue right now and they wouldn't be able to get past it. Whereas in real life, there are many good, kind, intelligent people who fall on both sides of this argument, or somewhere in the middle (which is probably where I am). I have plenty of friends who are lovely, clever and excellent critical thinkers, who are definitely more on your wife's side on this issue.

That said, I can see that it is very hard to find neutral places to discuss this, and I worry about your counsellor not being neutral. I hope counselling will at least give you some good tools for agreeing to disagree! You can always carry on venting/discussing on here, if it's something you can't do at home!

Personally from what you say I think it would be a great shame for your relationship to end over this, but I wish you the best of luck either way.

The two of you should throw your phones in a bloody river and commit to enjoying your relationship.

Thank you @DisappearingGirl that is really good advice. I guess I needed to vent a little to people who understand as it's difficult to talk IRL.

Could you move somewhere else? Getting away from that toxic crew to be by yourselves might be your best chance to work things out?

Not an option now with kids settled at school, our work etc + we both love where we live

The two of you should throw your phones in a bloody river and commit to enjoying your relationship

good advice! If only it were that simple

Thanks for the welcome, Sapphos. I'm touched. I've been a bit quiet because I've been helping care for my parents out in the country. I've been living in a kind of emotional bubble. They're 90+ and have carers coming in four times a day. We're extremely close - they were a tower of strength after DH died when our DC were still at primary school. DF died very peacefully last Friday. It's been a weird yet beautiful year.

Sorry for your struggles @SapphosRock. I think ultimately that if this pushback doesn’t end fairly quickly it’ll probably be her that turns against you and pushes you away sadly x

Sorry prawn 💐

Oh @PrawnofthePatriarchy I'm so sorry for your loss. Losing a parent is terribly hard, no matter how peaceful. It was my late DM who introduced me to feminism and we would have the best talks, I'd give anything to be able to talk to her right now.

DF died very peacefully last Friday. It's been a weird yet beautiful year.

PrawnofP - what a perfect way to express both of those events. I agree with Sapphos that death can be an emotional ambush.

PrawnofP - I wish you and your DM peace of mind and heart.

I'm sorry. Without children I would find this this difficult but could agree to disagree so long as there was a respectful attitude of live and let live/ free to campaign on both sides and we agreed never too have children.

Once children are already in the picture, I would find this incredibly hard to deal with because whether you decide to stay together or not, your children will be taught this stuff by one of the people they live and trust most in the world.

Quite apart from someone with parental responsibility enabling your child to subject themselves to elective medical interventions which are difficult or impossible to reverse (before puberty, no less!) I would be concerned about the intellectual development of my children on a very basic level of they are being required to believe conflicting things at once.

For example, I am very curious about how your partner proposes to teach them about sex and the possibility (or not) of pregnancy in a given sexual encounter or relationship if she sees literally no difference between women and transwomen.

It's not an issue that can or should be fudged, in my opinion. It's all very well saying that you should always use a condom anyway to guard against STDs but what about in a long term relationship after both partners have been tested? Presumably your children will be made aware that in a heterosexual relationship steps still need to be taken to guard against pregnancy; presumably they will be aware that this is not the case in a lesbian or gay relationship.

How will that knowledge be applied if one of them enters into a relationship with a transwoman or transman (or indeed identify as trans themselves)?

If your daughter enters into a relationship with a transwoman and there is no difference between a woman and a transwoman, you wife presumably thinks your daughter need not bother using contraception or she deals with some cognitive dissonance in advising your daughter that she needs to do so anyway?

Genuinely baffled.

I realise this is not particularly helpful but you have my sympathies for navigating some of these basic practicalities of life. Having conflicting views on parenting is hard enough without having an underlying conflict of views about the nature of reality. I suspect you may find some good answers to how to navigate this from people who have married those of a different (or no) religion.

@ArabellaScott

"Oh are you drowning? Shame. I am nice and dry on the shore FYI."

Oof. Yes, on the nose.

You caught me treating the OP the way you are treating her partner.