Could you stay married to a TRA?

[SapphosRock]

She believes TWAW, their feelings are more important than women’s rights and some lesbians have penises. Get over it. She was on here once upon a time but got permanently banned.
Everything else about the relationship is wonderful. Can we get past this? It seems like a stupid reason to get divorced. Our values used to be fairly similar but she’s got heavily involved in trans activism and I have gone the other way. Sorry for the pity party, just feel quite down about it today. Has anyone else been through similar?

@CovoidOfAllHumanity

Race is not even a clear biological binary whereas sex is

You can have all shades of skin colour from very dark to very light and where we are putting a line on that to divide people into black and white is just cultural conditioning

On the other hand sex is a binary and in no way a spectrum. That's how sexual reproduction works.

And yet identifying as a different colour is a terrible crime, cultural misappropriation etc whereas identifying as a different sex is all good. It is genuinely bizarre and inexplicable to me.

In my fantasies I am a beautiful black woman with a big Afro like Dolli on Glow Up who I think is gorgeous but I am able to distinguish fantasy from reality. It would be crazy for me to say I literally am a black woman because I want to be or I 'feel' like one and I happen to like disco and funk music and I would be rightly condemned if I tried that. But if I said I was a man that would be A OK apparently.

Strange times.

Well, not an expert but intersex is a thing. But I do get your point.

There are lots of red flags about the current TRA orthodoxy, but this is one of the biggest.

If you can't explain why identifying as the opposite sex is fine but colour isn't then I have a massive problem. If you think I'm bigoted for even asking you the question then the problem has got a million times worse.

Well, not an expert but intersex is a thing.

It's not a third sex. Intersex people have DSDs which mean they have sex chromosomes associated with being female (XX) or associated with being male (XY), but reproductive organs and genitals that may look different from usual. These conditions do not change the fact that sex is binary.

@HecatesCatsInFancyHats

Well, not an expert but intersex is a thing.

It's not a third sex. Intersex people have DSDs which mean they have sex chromosomes associated with being female (XX) or associated with being male (XY), but reproductive organs and genitals that may look different from usual. These conditions do not change the fact that sex is binary.

Agreed - the Claire Graham article linked upthread is clear about this.

Intersex is correctly termed disorders (or differences these days) of sexual development. It's not a natural state of being. It's the whole some people only have one leg but humans are still bipedal thing.

Amazing that someone actually argued in court that Rachel Dolzeal is black because she thinks she is. That's blown my mind.

Anyway apologies Sappho for detailing your support thread and I do wish you and your wife peace and harmony

Amazing that someone actually argued in court that Rachel Dolzeal is black because she thinks she is. That's blown my mind.

Not only that, but that it's reality

LE is a senior official at CGD (MF's employers). CC is Maya's legal representative.

LE — I have the email & recall but not the tweet.
CC — tweet re Rachel Dolezal
MF doesn’t see difference between man believing he can become woman and white persona believing they can become black — neither have basis in material reality
LE — OK
CC — she’s right isn’t she? [sketches Dolezal facts]
LE — I don’t know about Rachel Dolezal
CC — [refers to Dolezal interview in bundle] She’s ethnically white isn’t she
[Picture from the Rachel Dolezal interview]
LE — yes she appears to be white
CC — it’s true while she feels black that feeling has no basis in material reality
LE — No. If Rachel Dolezal recorded herself at CGD as black, she’d be black Professionally for all purposes she’d be black. In the USA anyone can self report ethnicity
CC — backed up with policy? Furore over Doelzal so not unproblematic? The reality is she’s not black?
LE — the reality is she’s black

Amazing that someone actually argued in court that Rachel Dolzeal is black because she thinks she is. That's blown my mind.

The only thing that blows my mind about this is that this seems weird to people, but that a man who says he is a woman can actually claim to be a woman.

I actually respect whoever said that more because at least her belief that just ‘saying’ you’re something means you are applies to race as well as sex.

My mother always says she feels Spanish - she loves tapas, sangria and siestas, she loves the heritage, the culture, the language. So surely she is actually Spanish?
Hilaria Baldwin had the piss taken out of her for saying she was Spanish. Why?

To be clear. I don’t think that you can be black if you’re not. I don’t think you can be a woman if you’re not. I don’t think Hilaria Baldwin is Spanish if she isn’t.
But why is one of those things ‘allowed’ and the others aren’t? It makes no sense.

@CovoidOfAllHumanity

Intersex is correctly termed disorders (or differences these days) of sexual development. It's not a natural state of being. It's the whole some people only have one leg but humans are still bipedal thing.

Amazing that someone actually argued in court that Rachel Dolzeal is black because she thinks she is. That's blown my mind.

Anyway apologies Sappho for detailing your support thread and I do wish you and your wife peace and harmony

I stand corrected. That said, I think what I meant is that whilst there are two sexes the reality, biologically, is a little more complex. I stand by my basic point, whilst acknowledging that it is - in literal terms - wrong.

For all intents and purposes there are two sexes. There are also some people whose biology does not fit neatly into those two sexes (even if they are by definition one or the other based on their chromosomes). There are also people who base their identity on gender stereotypes of the opposite sex.

I just read that court transcript too... to be honest with you... "mind blown that someone said it in court"... but "at least it's consistent, I find it very hard to see why sex and colour should be treated differently for self-identification purposes, but of course I might be missing something significant".

"For all intents and purposes there are two sexes. There are also some people whose biology does not fit neatly into those two sexes (even if they are by definition one or the other based on their chromosomes). There are also people who base their identity on gender stereotypes of the opposite sex."

Jedi, in all cases the person with DSD differs from a standard norm- that is the disorder. If there were no binary norm, DSDs wouldn't be Disorders ofSDs. They'd be less common norms. Instead, the template is standard but some 'prints' are patchy.

Sorry Sappho,forgot where I was. Didn't mean to derail. I hope you and DW are having a good day.

Came by to see how you were getting on Sapphos and I hope your DW's friend is ok. Whatever has gone on it doesn't sound good, your wife will want to support him or her and in turn will need support.

Perhaps you are turning a corner together, I hope so, even if it's slow and it takes baby steps. I hope you are having a nice evening together and you're both doing ok.

@ASugarr

Incorrect. Trans women are women and are entitled to women's 'sex based' rights. If you disagree that's fine. But many people agree with this and will continue to fight for equality.

No not according to their sex they aren’t. They are men. Sex is binary and immutable. So they are not entitled to women’s sex based rights. It’s not a case of ‘disagreeing’ it’s just facts. And unless the law is changed then it agrees with me.

Late to this but I don't think I could get past a difference of opinion that fundamental.

One thing that has really surprised me, about myself, as all of the gender stuff has developed over the last few years is just how deeply the fact that I am a woman matters to me. I won't call it 'identity', because I don't believe in 'identity' in the way it's used in gender politics; but I have been really surprised at how deeply the fact that I am a woman has overridden any of my other tribal or cultural allegiances like class, sexuality, politics etc.

From being a lifelong (and once quite activist) Labour member and supporter I now find I can't bring myself to vote Labour because of their position on these issues. LGBT Labour and our local university Labour clubs are all fully signed up with Stonewall and Amnesty to the open commercialisation of vulnerable women's bodies that is the decrim movement. Online Labour feminist groups that I've loved and found supportive and enriching, are starting to be full of young women and transmen enforcing pronouns and calling older women terfs. I have a deep antipathy to the Tories but never thought I would end up considering voting for them just to protect my rights and existence as a woman.

Equally, I now feel completely alienated as a lesbian/bisexual woman from the whole 'queer' LGBT movement in which straight girls with pink hair can cheerfully call themselves 'queer', whilst lesbians are told that if they don't accept that middle aged male fetishists are lesbians they're bigoted. I hate the normalisation of 'kink' and the sexual grooming of children as some kind of essential part of LGB culture, in which anyone objecting to this, or to the saturation of culture by hardcore porn and commercial values, is called names and denigrated. It's all so deeply regressive, anti-progressive, confused -- sometimes I would go so far as to say it's actually evil. I've been shocked to discover about myself that materially being a woman, and having a daughter who will be a woman, is probably the most fundamental aspect of who I am. I could tolerate a difference of political opinion in a partner - but something that is so much part of my material being as my sex? I'm not sure I could get past that, to be honest. Sorry, this is all a bit bleak.

@stackthecats

Late to this but I don't think I could get past a difference of opinion that fundamental.

One thing that has really surprised me, about myself, as all of the gender stuff has developed over the last few years is just how deeply the fact that I am a woman matters to me. I won't call it 'identity', because I don't believe in 'identity' in the way it's used in gender politics; but I have been really surprised at how deeply the fact that I am a woman has overridden any of my other tribal or cultural allegiances like class, sexuality, politics etc.

From being a lifelong (and once quite activist) Labour member and supporter I now find I can't bring myself to vote Labour because of their position on these issues. LGBT Labour and our local university Labour clubs are all fully signed up with Stonewall and Amnesty to the open commercialisation of vulnerable women's bodies that is the decrim movement. Online Labour feminist groups that I've loved and found supportive and enriching, are starting to be full of young women and transmen enforcing pronouns and calling older women terfs. I have a deep antipathy to the Tories but never thought I would end up considering voting for them just to protect my rights and existence as a woman.

Equally, I now feel completely alienated as a lesbian/bisexual woman from the whole 'queer' LGBT movement in which straight girls with pink hair can cheerfully call themselves 'queer', whilst lesbians are told that if they don't accept that middle aged male fetishists are lesbians they're bigoted. I hate the normalisation of 'kink' and the sexual grooming of children as some kind of essential part of LGB culture, in which anyone objecting to this, or to the saturation of culture by hardcore porn and commercial values, is called names and denigrated. It's all so deeply regressive, anti-progressive, confused -- sometimes I would go so far as to say it's actually evil. I've been shocked to discover about myself that materially being a woman, and having a daughter who will be a woman, is probably the most fundamental aspect of who I am. I could tolerate a difference of political opinion in a partner - but something that is so much part of my material being as my sex? I'm not sure I could get past that, to be honest. Sorry, this is all a bit bleak.

This. Absolutely, 100%.

So many important points in here.

@SapphosRock I think there is hopefully light at the end of the tunnel for you. Remember where you were and the things that helped you to see, and try to guide her. Don’t argue, just discuss.

Thank you ninkanink! I've been thinking about this a bit more and I think it's ultimately because politics, for example, is (like 'identity'), feelings, thoughts and desires in one's head. Sexuality, for me, is a combination of behaviour and desire, so it's both imaginative, in my head, and social, in my interactions and desires with and for others.

But sex is material - it's how I am in the world. It's my only materially embodied self. In many respects it's the only bit of my self that is not the feelings and desires in my head. When my daughter was too young to have an 'identity' she still had a female body. When my grandmother had no 'identity' left, due to Alzheimer's, she was still a woman. That's not a feeling in someone's head or a desire or an attraction or a wish or a cultural allegiance to a set of ideas. It just is.

Stackthecats, that's a fantastic post. I think you are absolutely right about gender ideology making me realise that actually the material reality of my sex is even more fundamental to who I am than I would previously have acknowledged.

Many of the older gay and lesbian people I know are scared that having been forcibly teamed with the TQ+ brigade we're going to be dragged down by them when the inevitable backlash occurs. When the kink, the identity madness and the links with paedophilia all become too much for people to turn a blind eye to any more, they'll hit out at everyone under the Stonewall umbrella, including the older lesbian feminists who've been at the forefront of the opposition.

Agree, really strong posts stackthecats

Thanks you @stackthecats for such a thoughtful post. You managed to articulate what I'm thinking very well (as well as many other posters on here it seems).
My DW prioritises being a trans ally over supporting women's rights and i find that very hard to relate to. Especially as we have a DD.

@stackthecats , you’ve put in words what I would have struggled to express so clearly!

I definitely feel that the older I get, and the more educated (thanks mumsnet) on these issues, the more my lived experience as a woman matters. It’s a fundamental part of who I am.

Also wishing@SapphosRock , your wife and family all the best in navigating this really difficult situation.

Not the same, but I had many (many) discussions with my partner about Brexit (he for, I against). I was determined it wouldn’t break us apart, but god it was hard. Really tested me.

@SapphosRock. Bold fail!
Why can’t we edit our posts ...

It’s really better that we can’t, tbh. Means that there is a permanent record of what was actually said, that can’t be retroactively messed with.

@Ninkanink I did think that even as I wrote out my post.... Just annoyed at myself for bold fail/poor proof writing skills. Which really isn’t the worst is it...

It’s really not.

sex is material - it's how I am in the world. It's my only materially embodied self. In many respects it's the only bit of my self that is not the feelings and desires in my head. When my daughter was too young to have an 'identity' she still had a female body. When my grandmother had no 'identity' left, due to Alzheimer's, she was still a woman. That's not a feeling in someone's head or a desire or an attraction or a wish or a cultural allegiance to a set of ideas. It just is.

thank you, yes, absolutely. Great posts, stackthecats.