Could you stay married to a TRA?

[SapphosRock]

She believes TWAW, their feelings are more important than women’s rights and some lesbians have penises. Get over it. She was on here once upon a time but got permanently banned.
Everything else about the relationship is wonderful. Can we get past this? It seems like a stupid reason to get divorced. Our values used to be fairly similar but she’s got heavily involved in trans activism and I have gone the other way. Sorry for the pity party, just feel quite down about it today. Has anyone else been through similar?

Only if you can agree never to talk about it or discuss it in the home.
My DS and his wife have radically opposing political and Brexit views and it almost led to a bust up.
So they went to a relationship counsellor and after that never discussed politics at home again and don't discuss who or what they voted for.
It works for them and their marriage is otherwise great.

However, I personally could not live with it.

DW and I had a very rare opportunity this morning to have breakfast together and read the paper. She is still feeling shaken by the events of yesterday so I tried to keep the conversation light.

She showed me this article in the Guardian and asked me what I thought (meaning did I sympathise with the person being interviewed).

I said 10 seems very young to comprehend the enormity of preventing puberty. I said 10 year olds shouldn't really have a concept of sex, let alone be able to imagine the consequences of sacrificing their adult sexual function.

DW said that for some people, passing as their chosen gender identity in adulthood is more important to them than having sex.

I said how could a 10 year old possibly know this.

DW thought for a moment and said 'yes, actually you are right about that.'

We left it at that and managed not to argue which is progress!

@Shehasadiamondinthesky

However, I personally could not live with it.

That's fair. I couldn't live with a GC it either.

Your update sounds rather reassuring Sappho.

Maybe the way ahead will not be quite so much being on opposing sides and that there will again be points where you agree rather than diverge.

Well done sapphos. Progress.

I read "encouragement" from the roboblx community as "grooming."

Worth noting many youngsters with autism find friendship through things like roboblox.

Well done. I don't think you can do any more than answer her questions and let her gradually see your point of view.

She may not agree but being able to discuss and see points of view will help.

Does she know much about the effects of PB and the recent nice review?

That sounds like a welcome step forward Sapphos - it sounds like she is taking a step back to consider her views more objectively and such a great sign that she asked for your opinion.

I’m sure she knows you well enough to know that you don’t hold your views through blind prejudice.

There is a contrast between the all encompassing requirement to sign up with every aspect of the prescribed (and changeable) belief system or face excommunication and ‘consequences’ and the approach that we generally have is ‘wear what you like, be who you want, live your best life, but don’t undermine our protections in law or safeguarding.

Glad to hear you are talking and enjoying breakfast together. Sending best wishes, Sappho.

No, I wouldn't be married to a trans person but I would stay friends with them.

@SapphosRock

Thanks all. Yes I know about the Twitter monitors (waves). I've been indirectly threatened by them before for stepping out of line.

The lack of self awareness from some of these TRAs is astounding. Bullying allies, stalking women on Mumsnet, ruining careers, attacking LGBTQ organisations that support them. Not really sure what they're trying to achieve apart from alienating people.

I am on your side, but from their point of view denying TWAW is like denying that black people should have the same rights as whites. However much someone claimed to be my ally and anti-racist I would go on attack mode if they were racist. I would have no problem alienating racists.

What I'm trying to say is that their beahiour is entirey explainable, and it's entirely reasonable to the extent that their viewpoint is true! ie it's reasonable to them, not reasonable to people who are GC.

Male-bodied people abusing and threatening women for defending women's rights is HORRIFIC and undoubtedly wrong - but again, if that male bodied person sees themselves as 100% woman and the women they threaten as the equivalent of a racist then it makes sense.

The only point it falls apart - perhaps, and hopefully - is when someone sees that attack-mode has been used against someone they know personally is a good person.

No, that is not correct. Trans people already have all the same rights as everyone else.

from their point of view denying TWAW is like denying that black people should have the same rights as whites.

How is saying something that isn't true like that at all? It is not a human right to be called something you claim to be but which you are not.

I think you have a good chance of getting through this together if you both focus on empathy and compassion as your approach. Good luck Sappho.

Sapphos the penny is dropping...

It is fascinating reading up on cults and how people cope coming out of them and how they have to learn to critically think and you cant push it only encourage the thought process by asking questions.

It sounds traumatic in itself.

Sorry to hear the update Sapphos. I hope her friend is Ok.

I remember when you first got really angry about the fact that Lesbians couldn't have a space for themselves anymore and you mentioned your wife not supporting you on it. I said at the time that she will probably have her own line that will inevitably be crossed and I think this may be it.

@HecatesCatsInFancyHats

from their point of view denying TWAW is like denying that black people should have the same rights as whites.

How is saying something that isn't true like that at all? It is not a human right to be called something you claim to be but which you are not.

I didn't say it was, I said from their point of view. If being a woman is 100% self-identification and 0% biology then denying such a thing is both factually untrue and bigoted, and being GC is as despicable as being a racist.

Absolute nonsense of course, but once you accept the first premise more and more nonsense lines up after it.

I think racism is a good analogy Jedi. I used to think that GC Feminism was akin to racism so I understand that on the surface it can appear discriminatory and exclusionary.

What I find interesting about the racism comparison is that throughout the history of time women have been oppressed by men and POC oppressed by white people.

It's fine for the oppressor to identity into the oppressed class when it comes to gender but not when it comes to race.

I sometimes wonder how POC would react to a white person saying they were assigned white at birth but their true identify was black. Then that person joining support groups for POC or winning prizes for POC.

It seems that you will find areas of common ground or at least low conflict together Sapphos. You both sound lovely thoughtful people.

This is so sad

Of course people can have different views on stuff and still have a happy relationship but it depends on how important those views and values are

If it was something that would rarely come up then you could agree to live and let live and not discuss it but if it's something you both feel really strongly on and are actively campaigning on opposite sides then it's going to lead to conflict.

It depends if you still love her mistaken opinions, warts and all or if this is causing/ has caused you to lose respect for one another.

I think the only way you could make it work would be maybe to accept that neither of you will change the other, stop hoping and expecting that and have ground rules about discussions on the topic. Not that you can't discuss it but that you have to do it in a loving respectful way not implying the other person is dumb or bad for holding a different view. Otherwise how can you carry on in a relationship with someone if their views cause you to lose respect for them

@SapphosRock

I think racism is a good analogy Jedi. I used to think that GC Feminism was akin to racism so I understand that on the surface it can appear discriminatory and exclusionary.

What I find interesting about the racism comparison is that throughout the history of time women have been oppressed by men and POC oppressed by white people.

It's fine for the oppressor to identity into the oppressed class when it comes to gender but not when it comes to race.

I sometimes wonder how POC would react to a white person saying they were assigned white at birth but their true identify was black. Then that person joining support groups for POC or winning prizes for POC.

The first thing I have to say to that is "where is the evidence that women have ever been oppressed by gender?" Surely they were oppressed by sex, or did I miss the bit about how butch lesbians were given the vote before heterosexual women? Which then brings me to my opinion that to identify as a woman, a biological male is by definition identifying as a biological female or they're identifying as a gender stereotype which is based on how biological females used to feel that they had to be. Identifying as a biological female makes no more sense than identifying as an elephant, and identifying as a stereotype - whilst entirely valid if that's what you want to do - is hardly something to be celebrated or proud of. Especially when there is nothing to stop men from being as feminine as they are able to be while still identifying as biological males..

Re white identifying as black - "https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/dec/13/rachel-dolezal-i-wasnt-identifying-as-black-to-upset-people-i-was-being-me".

That whole thing does fascinate me though... I can't see any logical reason why identifying as a different colour should be any different to as another sex... why should one be allowed and the other not? Also -

If I look 100% white but had a black grandparent who I had a very close relationship with, and was brought up by black extended family members am I allowed to identify as black?

Why do mixed race people often get called black but never white?

Race is not even a clear biological binary whereas sex is

You can have all shades of skin colour from very dark to very light and where we are putting a line on that to divide people into black and white is just cultural conditioning

On the other hand sex is a binary and in no way a spectrum. That's how sexual reproduction works.

And yet identifying as a different colour is a terrible crime, cultural misappropriation etc whereas identifying as a different sex is all good. It is genuinely bizarre and inexplicable to me.

In my fantasies I am a beautiful black woman with a big Afro like Dolli on Glow Up who I think is gorgeous but I am able to distinguish fantasy from reality. It would be crazy for me to say I literally am a black woman because I want to be or I 'feel' like one and I happen to like disco and funk music and I would be rightly condemned if I tried that. But if I said I was a man that would be A OK apparently.

Strange times.

The HR person from CGD giving evidence against Maya Forstater concluded that yes, Rachel Dolezal is Black if she identifies as Black. So in this particular instance someone has been consistent at least.
"the reality is she’s black".

mforstater.medium.com/live-tweets-from-the-tribunal-5bd28f8e39c1

(To be clear, the HR person was also arguing that TWAW)