Knew this would happen, had to turn down job

[Trixie78]

I'm furious, have been out of work for a while. Was offered a temporary contract writing and implementating policy for a public sector organisation. Just up my street and would really have helped us out. Turns out they're Stonewall champions and are full on TWAW and have all rights to anything they want. I asked to review some of their current policies and it's all cisgender crap and lists of stuff we must and mustn't do to make all Trans people safe. We'll I've obviously had to turn down the role and worse I told the recruiter why so will probably never get a job through them now. There are companies out there that haven't bought into all this crap aren't there?

@Butwasitherdriveway

If there was a company that was run by feminists and I said I've turned down this job because irs run by feminists, people would ask me to explain my thinking.

But it's not OK to do it the other way round?

I don't think anyone would be surprised if you made that decision based on a company supporting feminism to be fair!

@youvegottenminuteslynn

Ah ok I get it now *@Butwasitherdriveway*. You aren't actually interested in explaining what you mean or understanding what others mean, just asking the same thing over and over again because you aren't getting an answer you like.

Then claiming it's because you haven't had a relevant one, which is an entirely different matter.

I'm out, people with more patience with me will end up banging their head against a brick wall and your style of approaching these topics is what makes life harder, not easier, for my trans friends who actually understand this is a nuanced debate without goodies and baddies. That women and girls have valid concerns and funnily enough, my trans friends don't want to trample over them because they are decent and empathetic people.

You don't speak for them.

I'm not harassing her. I haven't responded directly to her for pages

It's an open page, you keep trying to demand that she tells you which policies. The fact you've not responded directly to her is because she hasn't posted but it's still her you are attempting to make your demands of - no-one else can answer that, so it is her you are harassing.

@Butwasitherdriveway

OP stated this: I said I couldn't work for a SW champion because they don't invoke the single sex exemptions enshrined in the equality act 2010 and left it at that.

Pretty clear and specific reasoning, I'd say? Or does it still not meet the threshold for you believing it to be acceptable explanation to a stranger?

@Butwasitherdriveway

Mate. Give yourself a break. Go and eat an ice cream. Have a wank. Tank a glass of wine.

It doesn't feel like you're enjoying this conversation.

Also, what does the biscuit mean exactly? I've never worked it out.

[quote youvegottenminuteslynn]@Butwasitherdriveway

OP stated this: I said I couldn't work for a SW champion because they don't invoke the single sex exemptions enshrined in the equality act 2010 and left it at that.

Pretty clear and specific reasoning, I'd say? Or does it still not meet the threshold for you believing it to be acceptable explanation to a stranger?[/quote]
Exactly.

@Butwasitherdriveway

If there was a company that was run by feminists and I said I've turned down this job because irs run by feminists, people would ask me to explain my thinking.

But it's not OK to do it the other way round?

They could ask, if they wanted to.

It's your choice whether to reply.

On this thread, you have had the freedom to repeatedly ask the OP for further information. She has exercised her right to ignore you.

No double standard there.

If would be odd to come to this board and say you'd turned down a job because it was run by feminists though. Very odd. Probably off topic actually.....

@Butwasitherdriveway

I shared the experience of my trans friends and how your style of discussion causes them pain and your reaction is a biscuit? Blimey. Empathy bypass much... It's almost like proof you're more focused on arguing than discussing isn't it?

I would have turned the job down too. There would be no way I could stand in front of a group of women who are discriminated and abused because of their sex and said TWAW.

@PotholeHellhole

The brain thing all seems like a decades long No True Scotsman Fallacy.

For the uninitiated, the fallacy goes like this:

Person 1: no Scotsman puts salt on his porridge.
Person 2: Yerwot? My cousin Dan has salted his porridge every day for thirty years.
Person 1: Your cousin is it? Well, notrueScotsman puts salt on his porridge!

Possibly followed by: he should bugger back off to England with you!

Instead of questioning the original assumption in response to new information, fault is just found with later information to justify why it doesn't actually count.

At some point after some study or other, we developed some observations on how to distinguish a male brain and a female brain.

Male brains had this feature. Female brains had that feature. This was used to justify (in learned tones) why women were under-represented in well paid professions in various popsci magazines. Our brains, see?

Then, someone points out that some male humans may have a neurological feature after all and it's:

"No true male brain has that feature. Bugger off, you're a woman!"

All seems rather daft. We all trace our origins back to the fusion of one egg cell and one sperm cell. 99.982% of human babies born were conceived with an XX or XY karyotype, by the way. And there has been no significant correlation between people with intersex conditions and people who identify as transgender, so let's not discuss that. People with variations of sexual development have said to keep them out of it!

So there you are, with a single cell that resulted from the fusion of the X egg and a Y sperm, rapidly undergoing cell division. Every cell is an undifferentiated, i.e. unspecialised cell, but each is XY in the DNA in the cell nucleus. Then as the weeks progress, cell differentiation starts happening, which means specialised cells, like bone, skin, muscle, pancreas andneuralcells start forming. Every single one carrying the same DNA instructions as that first cell, but following different sections of it.

Of course the male fetus has a male brain! Where would a female brain have come from? No-one would talk of a male baby having female kidneys if his kidneys were smaller than usual for a boy, would they?

Thank you for that elucidation Pothole.

[quote youvegottenminuteslynn]**@Butwasitherdriveway

OP stated this: I said I couldn't work for a SW champion because they don't invoke the single sex exemptions enshrined in the equality act 2010 and left it at that.

Pretty clear and specific reasoning, I'd say? Or does it still not meet the threshold for you believing it to be acceptable explanation to a stranger?[/quote]
Genuinely interested in your response to this @Butwasitherdriveway as I think you genuinely missed OP saying this hence asking her specific reasons I would guess 10+ times. It would be so refreshingly gracious of you to acknowledge that.

I told the recruiter why so will probably never get a job through them now.

Fingers crossed.

I suspect Driveway has hit the strike limit in this thread alone.

I thought the OP was pretty clear about the kinds of policies she was unhappy about, no one wants to give too many identifiable details on the internet.

But it's unfortunate to see a thread purposefully derailed from an interesting question about employment by basically random garble.

@Scepticaltank

I suspect Driveway has hit the strike limit in this thread alone.

It would be such a shame considering that their question has now been clearly answered through a direct quote from OP re what OP specifically disagreed with policy wise. As I said it would be refreshing to get their genuine thoughts on it.

I get the feeling that driveway was committing suicide by banhammer. Strange choice of thread, tho. Definitely more of a whimper than a bang.

It was an interesting display of loss of control.

Well, you've compared it to a mythical belief. Is that better ?

I mentioned Christians, Muslims and not believing in God. Some people would be personally offended that you think of Islam as a "mythical belief". Would it then be ok to call you Islamaphobic?

I said I couldn't work for a SW champion because they don't invoke the single sex exemptions enshrined in the equality act 2010 and left it at that.

Indeed, Stonewall have actively campaigned to have the Single Sex exemptions removed from the Equality Act, a policy wilfully detrimental in practice to over half the UK population who rely on them for their dignity, privacy and safety particularly when they are vulnerable or in a state of undress.

womansplaceuk.org/references-to-removal-of-single-sex-exemptions/

Stonewall 27th August 2015
Stonewall’s submission to Women & Equalities Select Committee Inquiry on Transgender Equality calls for

“A review of the Equality Act 2010 to include ‘gender identity’ rather than ‘gender reassignment’ as a protected characteristic and to remove exemptions, such as access to single-sex spaces”

One has to wonder, why on earth would Stonewall ever campaign to remove the single sex exemptions, if they genuinely believe that males with the protected characteristic of gender reassignment are already entitled to use female only spaces?

Maybe, underneath it all, they are aware that UK law is actually totally different to what they tell their champions 🤔

Well done, OP, on your principled stance and best of luck for your job hunt.

It is really helpful to everyone involved in policy to read threads like this.

I do understand people are fearful of the reactions, and driveway has set out quite clearly how the reactions we all will face will go.

It's rage, fury, incoherence, sarcasm, and possibly the hardest to deal with, passive aggression. I do understand that this is hard to deal with (I've spent 30 years in HR dealing with it) but ultimately it is at it's most basic level hot air and noise.

You can get away with more rage and fury online than you can in a policy review meeting. Driveway would not be very credible IRL behaving as she has here.

We are currently in a zoom world where courtesy and civility is even more important. Anyone as angry as driveway would not be credible.

I am sure once we get back to the office en masse tantrums are not going to be a regular feature.

Driveway is the exception not the rule. I'm heartened by the Russell Group statement today on free speech. I think we should all aim to be freed from the prejudice of those who insist they know the only right way.

You show me someone who claims that a teenager actually believed a biological man can give birth and said please say pregnant people and il show you a liar.

We understand trans. You might not like it, but pretending you don't understand it is not on.

Kids aren't confused.

Noticed the "we" in that comment. Are you saying that you are a teenager, Driveway?

@OwBist

I thought the OP had clearly articulated that her issue was around her professional concerns around being asked to write, disseminate, train and defend policies which she knows are not compliant with current law. Which would lead to her personally being exposed to censure, as well as it being against her personal views. How we got into personal insults, I don't know, but it would be great if it would stop.

This

There is a young person on the green party Twitter link that said

To be fair, if I was put forward for a job that involved shilling for fash, fossil fuels or transphobia, I'd probably declare it unsuitable. My mental health isn't worth that paycheque

Oops posted too soon

That young person has their principles and is prepared to stand by them

Also, what does the biscuit mean exactly? I've never worked it out

It means no comment officially

Some seem to use it as ‘that was a crap post/opinion’

Mumsnet deleted a biscuit on here once (and no im not letting it go) one assumes because in that case they thought it meant something much much ruder or meaner...even though it means no comment and stands absolutely everywhere else on mumsnet