Genital Inspections

[ASugarr]

The Florida House passed a bill on April 14, 2021, that would ban trans girls and women from playing on high school and collegiate teams. It would also allow schools to require a genital inspection of student athletes suspected of being trans.
t.co/CMRxJnHgV2

This is child sexual abuse. I hope this never ends up happening in the UK. Trans girls and women deserve to play in women's sports. Trans boys and men deserve to play in men's sports. Period.

Here is that USAF study if anyone is interested.

bjsm.bmj.com/content/early/2020/11/06/bjsports-2020-102329

Effect of gender affirming hormones on athletic performance in transwomen and transmen: implications for sporting organisations and legislators

Summary The 15–31% athletic advantage that transwomen displayed over their female counterparts prior to starting gender affirming hormones declined with feminising therapy. However, transwomen still had a 9% faster mean run speed after the 1 year period of testosterone suppression that is recommended by World Athletics for inclusion in women’s events.

It is interesting reading as it also leaves the suggestion that even after 3 years advantage still exists.

[quote transbadger]@Tibtom

And bowls is extremely popular in Scotland. That doesn't prove that men have no advantage over women in competitive team sports.

Examples given by OP to prove there's no unfair advantage are croquet and cheerleading ffs. Skill? Sure. Athleticism. Yep. Obfuscating the point? You betcha.

Lets throw chess and scrabble into the mix if we're trying to avoid the obvious issues.

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Of course sex matters but I wouldn't disparage those who compete in bowls either by comparing their extensively practiced and developed skills to 'cat patting' or 'nipping to the shops'. These sports matter to peole too even if they don't involve athleticism.

I think it’s also important to note that any child being subjected to any testing at all would only be put in that position because they/their parents were attempting to place them in a category they’re aware that they don’t belong in.

A child can’t have a GRC, so as the law stands there is not a right enshrined in law for a child to be treated as a member of the opposite sex.

If parents and children don’t attempt to force this issue, then there is no need for any testing and the child’s privacy remains intact, which is surely the best outcome?

but this doesn’t fit the narrative being touted by activists who often reach for offence and disgust to mask the basic inequality of allowing male physiology in female sport.

And since 'omg you want genital inspections' is also routinely used over the issue of toilets and changing rooms, it's all rather transparent. And noticeably ineffectual.

Quote from the article: "One of the bill’s opponents, Rep. Omari Hardy (D), said it would subject kids to “genital inspections.”

I wonder if the OP would be so enthusiastic to rely on quotes from US opponents to other bills such as women's right to access contraception, and safe abortions, gun control etc as evidence.

Croquet and snooker are not going to win scholarships for US universities.

There's a thread by @notbadconsidering which details the unfairness of male born individuals competing in female sports. Here's the opener:

"I’m absolutely sick of the whole “no trans Olympian” argument, which completely fails to acknowledge the hundreds of women and girls already disadvantaged at non-Olympic levels. This post is a more detailed, more researched variation of a post I’ve made before and is not extensive.

Terri Miller and Andraya Yearwood

When these two athletes were allowed to compete in Connecticut state high school athletics, every girl who participated had their place lowered by one or two in every competition these in which athletes took part.

These are the results from 2018:

go.mumsnet.com/?xs=1&id=470X1554755&url=www.runnerspace.com/eprofile.php?eventid=458&do=news&newsid=534718 Note the names of all the girls whose places were lowered, not just those whose places were lowered from the winners’ podium. Note also the names Shanea Calhoun and Shayla Wallace, the record holders for the 100m and 200m respectively.

Here are the 2019 results:

www.runnerspace.com/eprofile.php?eventid=458&do=news&newsid=578633

A few things to note here. Note the new record holder who has erased those names from above...
Also note that by good fortune, Chelsea Mitchell won the final because Terri Miller false-started. Some justice there.

A special mention to Selina Soule whose name appears and has been brave enough to speak out against the injustice:

go.mumsnet.com/?xs=1&id=470X1554755&url=m.youtube.com/watch?v=3DsejTFZQ7k This list of affected girls is not comprehensive. It doesn’t include qualifying meets, lower school events, indoor events etc.

CeCe Telfer

Telfer competed in the women’s 400m hurdles in the Division II (two) NCAA Championships in 2019.

Here are the results from 2018 where Telfer doesn’t appear:

fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/trackoutdoorchamps_records/2018/D2Women.pdf

Note the name Minna Sveard who finished 8th with a time of 1.02.54. Now look at the results from 2019:

go.mumsnet.com/?xs=1&id=470X1554755&url=fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/trackoutdoorchamps_records/2019/D2Women.pdf All of these women had their places lowered by one. And look at Minna Sveard. Worked hard over the year to knock 3 seconds off her time to come 2nd...behind Telfer.

Hannah Mouncey AFL

Aussie rules has 18 players on each side. When Hannah Mouncey was allowed to play in the lower leagues, one of Mouncey’s teammates sat on the bench each game. Maybe another didn’t make the squad because their place on the bench was taken. All of Mouncey’s teammates were disadvantaged by having to share changing facilities. All of Mouncey’s opponents were disadvantaged by having to tackle Mouncey. Then multiply that by how many teams are in that league. Then add the umpires who were placed in a compromising legal position should any serious injury had happened to a woman. This is hundreds of women. There are too many to find to acknowledge individually.

Hannah Mouncey Handball

When Mouncey switched to handball, a woman didn’t get selected to represent Australia at the 2018 Asian championships because Mouncey was in the squad. A woman who made the squad didn’t get to start, because Mouncey started all 6 games. All of these women were disadvantaged by having to share changing facilities with Mouncey, something they complained about, according to Mouncey. Mouncey also played handball for a club in Melbourne.

I have found some of the names of the Australian women’s handball squad that played in the Asian Championships in 2018 but it isn’t comprehensive.

Rachel McKinnon/Veronica Ivy Track Cycling

When McKinnon (as was known then) won at the Masters cycling championships, every woman below had their place moved down by one.

www.cyclingmasters.com/site/results/450-f35-39-sprint-final-result-2019

Dawn Orwick missed out on gold. Kersten Herup Sovang missed out on silver.

go.mumsnet.com/?xs=1&id=470X1554755&url=www.cyclingmasters.com/site/results/385-f35-39-sprint-qualifying-round-result-2019 Amber Walsh didn’t get the chance to race for bronze.

Laurel Hubbard Weightlifting

When Laurel Hubbard, a middle aged transwoman whose wealthy family owns a cereal company in New Zealand, won weightlifting gold in Samoa, Feagaiga Stowers, an 18 year old indigenous Samoan woman, a survivor of abuse, was denied gold at her home games. Every other woman who finished below Hubbard had their place lowered by one.

www.oceaniaweightlifting.com/Portals/0/results/owf-results/2019PG.pdf?ver=2019-07-18-123626-010

The women affected were (page 41): Feagaiga Stowers, Iuniarra Sipaia, Charisma Amoe Tarrant, Mamuel Mwareow, Helen Anastasia Seipua.

The New Zealand team took 8 weightlifters to those games, 4 men and 4 women. Hubbard was counted as one of the latter. Which meant there was a woman left home back in NZ who didn’t get the chance to compete at the Pacific games. Weightlifters have to compete at a number of certain events to qualify for the Olympics.

Maxine Blythin Cricket

When Maxine Blythin won Kent Women’s cricketer of the year, someone else didn’t. When Blythin plays on the women’s team, either local or county, a woman is relegated to 12th woman. When Blythin smashes a smaller, lighter ball over a closer boundary rope, the women who are bowling to Blythin have their bowling averages increased. This is scores of women. It’s hard to find all of these women, but I found one match summary of a game when Blythin scored 152 not out. The bowlers all had very high runs scored against them.

www.play-cricket.com/website/results/3863705

These bowlers had their bowling averages and likely their confidence blown out by Blythin hitting 22 boundaries. So an acknowledgment of Ellen Burt, Megan Belt, Eleanor Monk, Naomi Woods, Bethan Harvey, Natasha Sole, and Hollie Young of St Lawrence and Highland Court first XI.

I can’t find who was runner up in Kent Women’s cricketer of the year."

@Tibtom

I like to match what an OP brings to the table. If it's all a bit silly, I get a bit silly too.

My point is that OP is nowhere near justifying her point with the examples she gave.

I'm a champion cat patter. No offence meant to those who compete in dog patting leagues.

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its what some of the kids are saying on tik-tok

(dd asked me if it was true!)

@CousinKrispy

Croquet and snooker are not going to win scholarships for US universities.

Maybe OP should start a campaign to make that happen.

What about it? Petition the universities to focus on mixed sex sports only and that is one problem solved .

I also support trans men in men's sports just to add.

Do you think that's fair? It's bloody dangerous. What if you have a transman who is passionate about rugby, for example. They may have played on a women's team at a high level for a number of years and love it. Should they then not have a place on that team as a biological female, but be forced to play on the mens team? Or because of his passion, should he carry on living as a woman despite the "trauma" it causes in order to be able to safely play? Also disadvantaged in every sport. The emphasis is always on transwomen (men), because of entrenched misogyny but also as it benefits them.

And of course "genital inspections" are inappropriate, but as birth sex can easily be confirmed by a cheek swab or keeping accurate records for each student that are checked at the start of term, certainly not "every time" they show up to play.

Also Spud Webb was only 5'6" and still won the NCAA Slam Dunk competition

Here's the thread I mentioned:

‘No Trans Olympian’ List of women and girls disadvantaged in sport - resource thread www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4175263--No-Trans-Olympian-List-of-women-and-girls-disadvantaged-in-sport-resource-thread

I think it is more likely that black girls are going to be the victim of accusations of being the wrong sex than white girls. I think there’s room for a lot of racism and foul play in very competitive environments (but maybe, I will admit, I may have watched too much tv drama).

I’m not at all up in arms about transgirls being disallowed from female sport - I think this is a step forward for most sports, croquet perhaps excepted! I do think there are a lot of racist, sexist and transphobic lawmakers in the us (though I am in this case not concerned about the trans aspect - I think anyone trying to compete as a member of the opposite sex is a cheat). I don’t assume everyone is a good faith actor and I would like to see the rules not disadvantaging anyone.
A cheek swab or doctors note for all participants prior to a formal competition would be ideal.
I hadn’t read the exact wording of the bill. I am concerned about legislation in this area opening up opportunities for sexual abuse by sports coaches - it’s not like that never happens, is it?

Excellent post @RabbitOfCaerbannog. Thanks for sharing.

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Great post rabbit

Thanks for the list RabbitOfCaerbannog

It is also important to understand that this is happening. Right now!

Right now, there are women and girls being harmed not just physically, but their future opportunities too, by the inclusion of males in the female category of sport.

That is what these bills are aiming to prevent.

However, activists will twist the language and the headlines to ignore the clear science that is irrefutable by now. And that science only proves what humans have known forever. Ridiculous isn’t it.

A physical exam is the part where they would have to undergo a genital examination which is disgusting

Women and girls competing in recognised competition have always been required to submit to medical checks if their documentation is not deemed a match or sufficient.

Were you also campaigning against this when it was focused on women observed as female from birth?

Think of all the poor girls from disadvantaged backgrounds in the US whose only way to university is through a sports scholarship and the unfairness of their hopes being closed off to them because they no longer have a chance.

And this all shows with great clarity why the legal fiction that is the GRC ( for adults) and the falsification of birth certificates causes more problems than they solve. Of course for children their birth or adoption certificate will have been produced when they start school, and nothing will have changed. What has changed is the number of policies adopted by schools and authorities who fail to see the implications of allowing anyone to choose the facility/sport/ of the sex with which they identify. There is no reason for males to be a part of specifically female teams . Policies need to be looked at again.

Some posters don’t seem to know much about elite sports. Children competing at high level need to provide proof of their age and sex and to consent to testing ( urine and blood if necessary ) if required. There’s many many other rules they have to comply with too, from what they say on SM to the size of letters on their kit.

Athletes who compete in para sports have to show that they meet the requirements of that category.

This is necessary to stop people cheating . It’s to ensure fair competition for para athlete and women and girls, who would have no chance in an open field.

Anyone who objects to athletes providing such evidence has a very clear agenda IMO, which is to stop access to competitive sport for para athletes and women / girls.

And this all shows with great clarity why the legal fiction that is the GRC ( for adults) and the falsification of birth certificates causes more problems than they solve.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Could you clarify please?

Bluelipstick Birth certificates should be enough to prove sex and probably are for children. However when a GRC is issued ( in uk) or name changes by deed poll these do not indicate the truth. So for people committed to cheating, it could make it easier.

Women and girls competing in recognised competition have always been required to submit to medical checks if their documentation is not deemed a match or sufficient.

Seems reasonable to me.