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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Genital Inspections

999 replies

ASugarr · 18/04/2021 05:24

The Florida House passed a bill on April 14, 2021, that would ban trans girls and women from playing on high school and collegiate teams. It would also allow schools to require a genital inspection of student athletes suspected of being trans.
t.co/CMRxJnHgV2

This is child sexual abuse. I hope this never ends up happening in the UK. Trans girls and women deserve to play in women's sports. Trans boys and men deserve to play in men's sports. Period.

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Leafstamp · 18/04/2021 14:33

That is a very sad tale, and also a cautionary tale for the use of drugs that interfere with hormone levels to the extent that they bring about significant visible physical changes.

UsedUpUsername · 18/04/2021 14:35

Also, note that the quote about genital inspection is coming froman opponent to this bill. They have every reason to denigrate it and lie about the implications.

An un-amended birth certificate would be enough. But chromosomal tests can probably be done cheaply enough, if the birth certificate is from a state that allows you to change sex markers and there’s no access to the original for whatever reason.

It’s necessary to see these documents to protect women’s sports. There’s no need for genital tests.

You can’t go to school in America without a vaccination record so I don’t see what’s wrong with schools requesting to see original, unamended birth certs either.

NotTerfNorCis · 18/04/2021 14:36

it is a shame ASugarr thinks this sort of sex difference denial is feminism.

Wonder why this kind of 'feminist' thinks women and girls have historically been denied political power and social equality. Is it down to identity? Attitude? Aptitude? Because if biology isn't a factor then something else must be at the root of patriarchal societies.

OhDear2200 · 18/04/2021 14:38

@NotTerfNorCis

it is a shame ASugarr thinks this sort of sex difference denial is feminism.

Wonder why this kind of 'feminist' thinks women and girls have historically been denied political power and social equality. Is it down to identity? Attitude? Aptitude? Because if biology isn't a factor then something else must be at the root of patriarchal societies.

Not wearing the right clothes I think.
OhDear2200 · 18/04/2021 14:39

Because that’s what makes being a woman and therefore a proper feminist.

SmokedDuck · 18/04/2021 14:42

You can get a genetic test done from one of those big companies for about the same price as a GP visit in the US.

MissBarbary · 18/04/2021 14:50

@ifIwerenotanandroid

Back in the 1970s a male doctor used to attend our senior school to give a medical examination to each pupil (who undressed down to her underwear, possibly with her lab coat over the top while she waited, IIRC). As part of the exam, he pulled out the top of one's briefs & had a cursory look inside, which took me by surprise & amused/bemused me - what did he think he'd find, in an all-girls school?

Does this not happen any more? Was it child abuse?

Where on earth did you live? I was at school in the 70s and I've never heard of anything like this happening?
andyoldlabour · 18/04/2021 14:51

OhDear2200

"Not wearing the right clothes I think."

Maybe if I put my DW's coat on, I will magically be in "Girl mode" Confused Grin

andyoldlabour · 18/04/2021 14:53

MissBarbary
"Where on earth did you live? I was at school in the 70s and I've never heard of anything like this happening?"

Not just me thinking that was very worrying then? I left in '75 and thankfully never witnessed anything like that.

Scepticaltank · 18/04/2021 14:59

@NotTerfNorCis

it is a shame ASugarr thinks this sort of sex difference denial is feminism.

Wonder why this kind of 'feminist' thinks women and girls have historically been denied political power and social equality. Is it down to identity? Attitude? Aptitude? Because if biology isn't a factor then something else must be at the root of patriarchal societies.

Maybe ASugarr will give us an insight?
Shizuku · 18/04/2021 15:01

@Clarice99

Never under-estimate the desire of the otherwise mediocre to cheat in sport.

I agree.

Generally speaking, observed behaviour from the male species.

The male ego.

So, men will always take advantage of pro-trans rules to cheat, but no man will ever take advantage of anti-trans rules to get inside a girl's pants?

Once again, as long as it's anti-trans, you'll turn a blind eye to any safeguarding issues.

What do you think the psychological effect will be on a gender non-conforming girl who is banned from sports at school until she proves she's a girl?

AssassinatedBeauty · 18/04/2021 15:07

"but no man will ever take advantage of anti-trans rules to get inside a girl's pants?"

What does this mean? How would a man take advantage of "anti-trans" rules to "get inside a girl's pants"??

Scepticaltank · 18/04/2021 15:08

No one is objecting to safeguarding in medical care Shiz, did you just make that up?

Shizuku · 18/04/2021 15:09

@AssassinatedBeauty

"but no man will ever take advantage of anti-trans rules to get inside a girl's pants?"

What does this mean? How would a man take advantage of "anti-trans" rules to "get inside a girl's pants"??

www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-us-canada-42712961
Kendodd · 18/04/2021 15:09

This reply has been deleted

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Erkrie · 18/04/2021 15:09

What do you think the psychological effect will be on a gender non-conforming girl who is banned from sports at school until she proves she's a girl?

Relief that women and girls sport is being protected for her safety.

transsloth · 18/04/2021 15:10

but no man will ever take advantage of anti-trans rules to get inside a girl's pants?

There should absolutely be safe-guarding to avoid such problems. For example, schools recording students' sex accurately, so no need for bizarre physical examinations before PE. And no "social transitioning" of children. It should just be a neutral fact what sex you are, with appropriate pronouns etc. If someone wants to present in a gender nonconforming way then that's fine, we don't need to pretend they are the opposite sex.

lifeissweet · 18/04/2021 15:12

Yes of course some men take any opportunity to abuse girls. Just look at the awful stories of the physio in US Gymnastics.

That's not the situation here, though. It isn't saying 'you have to flash your bits to whoever wants to see them' (step this way, abusers, the door's open) It's saying 'we need evidence that children are playing in the right teams. So get an HCP to provide a note which could be evidenced from long term knowledge of the patient, a cheek swab, a blood test, or... if all of those things are somehow impossible... an examination.'

If you have problems with doctors seeing genitals then we have a major problem, as it is often a medical necessity and we generally trust them to do this appropriately.

If an HCP is an abuser, then that is another issue.

I don't think this calls for strange men to turn up with 'genital inspector' badges and insist on private examinations.

Consent would need to be given, a parent would need to supervise and if all of that was deemed too traumatic, then one of the other options could be taken.

As it happens, most family doctors know their patients well enough to sign off on biological sex without any tests at all.

The only grey area would seem to be where a child actually is transitioning, in which case a doctor would be even more likely to be fully apprised of that fact and could declare such without any examination at all.

I don't see this being more problematic than women having smear tests. We don't shout abuse about that.

Erkrie · 18/04/2021 15:12

but no man will ever take advantage of anti-trans rules to get inside a girl's pants

In the same vein, you could accuse every male doctor who performs an internal / genital examination of women and girls. So what should we do? Get rid of male doctors? Stop performing medical examinations?

AssassinatedBeauty · 18/04/2021 15:13

@Shizuku why do you think that safeguarding will be thrown aside for this specific case?

Erkrie · 18/04/2021 15:15

Anyway, a female nurse / mother in the room will get round that problem.

BaseDrops · 18/04/2021 15:17

People cheat or go right up to the line of acceptable in everything where there are lines. It’s why new lines get drawn. It’s why checks are made.

If you don’t think the lines are fair - draw up a new line after an impact assessment on everyone involved. Don’t just come up with a new line or exception and create new inequity.

MissBarbary · 18/04/2021 15:18

@Erkrie

Anyway, a female nurse / mother in the room will get round that problem.
And only in the highly unlikely event that sex couldn't be proved by some other method.
Erkrie · 18/04/2021 15:25

And only in the highly unlikely event that sex couldn't be proved by some other method

Indeed.

yourhairiswinterfire · 18/04/2021 15:29

@Erkrie

Anyway, a female nurse / mother in the room will get round that problem.
Yes. You're allowed to ask for a chaperone, aren't you? (In the UK, at least.)

If for whatever reason a male GP has to perform a breast exam, vaginal exam etc, don't they usually call in a nurse to be present anyway?

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