Genital Inspections

[ASugarr]

The Florida House passed a bill on April 14, 2021, that would ban trans girls and women from playing on high school and collegiate teams. It would also allow schools to require a genital inspection of student athletes suspected of being trans.
t.co/CMRxJnHgV2

This is child sexual abuse. I hope this never ends up happening in the UK. Trans girls and women deserve to play in women's sports. Trans boys and men deserve to play in men's sports. Period.

That's in a nutshell. I teach my children to be respectful of all sexes, races and sexual orientations. I'm more than happy to adopt the same position about gender presentation. Most kids now days are pretty accepting I find. The only people I know who aren't tend to be older men and TRA allies.

"Christ OP you really do talk some shit."

Yep, 22 pages and that probably sums it up better than any of the previous well thought out arguments and examples.
We are playing pigeon chess again.

That sounds bloody dodgy, Android. I don't know whether it's child abuse, or one to put down to "I had to sit in the boot of the car with the dog". The 70s were weird.

Don't feed the knobby..

This thread has offered many opportunities to showcase how to use evidenced research in challenging fake news and whataboutery. Thanks to all those women demonstrating how to protect the rights of girls and women from those seeking to remove them.

I know it's pigeon chess, although the quality of their debate is really quite something. It's good to have it all laid out here, with the ridiculous glaring errors in the activist thought process exposed for all to see.

What if they are poor and a genital exam is cheaper than lab tests?

What if the healthcare professional insists on a genital exam because, you know, some people are dodgy?

What about the psychological, and social effects on a gender non-conforming girl who is required to take a test to prove she is a girl?

It's amazing to me the things GC people will wave by if they think it will help to exclude trans people.

This is absolute nonsense, Shizuku,. When did you or anyone you know IRL experience this as a US public high school or college student? States and dates, please.

In the absence (predictably) of a response. --- N E V E R, because it doesn't happen,. and you are here to whip up anger and hatred against both women and trans people.

We're not letting you.

To be fair that's a good question. I don't see the need for it with most sports

Lol just the kind of thing someone who has never seriously played sports would say 🤡

Has anything changed since I left?
No?
Law still doesn't require genital inspections√
Male born trans athletes still have insurmountable advantages over female athletes√
Pubescent boys still much stronger than their female peers√
Being slim doesn't make a female athlete male√

I consider it sexist to tell some women and men that they can't participate in a sport just because they are transgender, intersex, etc.

This is a really great example of a lie from ASugarr.

No one is telling anyone they can’t participate in a sport.

No one.

No one wants to deny anyone the right to participate in sport at all.

What we are saying is that it is wrong on for biologically male people to attempt to participate in sport that is reserved for biologically female people.

That’s it.

Sport that is reserved for biologically male people, of which there is an abundance, and sport that is mixed sex, are both completely open to biologically male people. They are welcome and entitled to participate in that at any level which is appropriate to their ability.

The fact you have to resort to such blatant lies and misrepresentation just shows you haven’t got an argument at all.

Your denial of reality in so many ways would be quite fascinating from a psychological perspective, if not for the genuine harm people of your ideological persuasion are causing to women and girls.

@Nellodee

That sounds bloody dodgy, Android. I don't know whether it's child abuse, or one to put down to "I had to sit in the boot of the car with the dog". The 70s were weird.

They were probably looking to note how far along puberty had progressed. It seems to be a think when American doctors do exams on adolescents. Weird IMO, we don't do that normally here in Canada, but I've heard Americans argue it's very important. I think it's related to how keen they are for all sorts of unnecessary baseline testing generally.

@andyoldlabour

"Christ OP you really do talk some shit."

Yep, 22 pages and that probably sums it up better than any of the previous well thought out arguments and examples.
We are playing pigeon chess again.

Indeed.

@lifeissweet

You hit the nail on the head with this:

Yes. It's all down to parenting.
That young hockey player should have been told from the moment she decided to transition that it is a social transition. That she can be treated like a girl, but can't actually be one (and all the therapy and psychological support possible should be provided to help her come to terms with that reality). It should not be a surprise to her as she grows that her male body is going to exclude her from some female spaces and sports.

It seems to be a vital element that so many parents are missing - to manage expectations of their children rather than blowing smoke up their ass.

To be fair that's a good question. I don't see the need for it with most sports

Never under-estimate the desire of the otherwise mediocre to cheat in sport.

Excuse my ignorance but what is pigeon chess?

As another aside, have you noticed that the latest TRA tactic is to accuse us of child abuse? Like the laughable "all terves are right wing" that was the previous tactic. They think it will sting we are mostly left leaning and now, will have an emotional impact becasue we are mostly mothers. But it's so transparent. What's next? We are all in denial about actually being men?

@334bu

Excuse my ignorance but what is pigeon chess?

It’s a reference to this sage advice:

Never play chess with a pigeon.

The pigeon just knocks all the pieces over.

Then shits all over the board.

Then struts around like it won.

How about we make sure that it’s fair for, oh I dunno, everyone? I know it’s a crazy idea.

It’s competitive. Anything which is graded or competitive has rules and criteria to ensure that everyone is competing within the same specific set of rules and conditions that have been designed to make that thing a level playing field. If it’s something that feeds from county, to country to international - they all have to use the same rules.

If you want to change the existing rules - do an impact analysis on everyone affected. That is fair. Using the criteria that this group can’t do this thing and changing the rules with no impact analysis for everyone else - is not fair.

If it is not competitive - you still need rules and criteria for safety. You also need to make sure you are compliant with the equalities act.

The world is full of must fit in this box to do x. Individuals are not able to fit in all the boxes they might want to. That’s just life.

No one ever mentions the handicap system that is used in golf. It’s designed to allow people with different ability to compete fairly. Families do something similar to try and make stuff fair for siblings competing. There are lots of mechanisms in all sorts of areas designed to level the playing field and make it fair.

Never under-estimate the desire of the otherwise mediocre to cheat in sport.

I agree.

Generally speaking, observed behaviour from the male species.

The male ego.

Excuse my ignorance but what is pigeon chess?

It’s a reference to this sage advice:

Never play chess with a pigeon.

The pigeon just knocks all the pieces over.

Then shits all over the board.

Then struts around like it won.

Sorry posted too soon Thanks for explanation and it certainly explains all the guano being spouted.

I am an optimistic sort.

I keep hoping that one day a transactivist or trans ally will come here and blow me away with a pithy, well researched, well evidenced, honestly debated point that will move my position on some aspect of this debate.

I get disappointed quite a lot.

Ah well, I won’t be beaten down, I’ll continue to hold the faith! One day. One day it might happen.

It is a shame ASugarr thinks this sort of sex difference denial is feminism. In my experience this has trashed a lot of feminist organisations. WEP and Fawcett being just two examples where the existence of denialism results in dramatic membership decreases to the point they are unsustainable.

I can see why it has become a social justice position to engage in sex denialism but I wish women like ASugarr could reflect on the feedback instead of digging in, and realise they are actually denuding the ability for women to advocate for their own sex by participating in the sad destruction of the structures we have set up.

Formal long standing organised feminism is now in a sorry state compared with 5 or 10 years ago. Sport for women is similarly facing the same sex denialist trashing attempts under the banner of feminism. What a shame.

"Never under-estimate the desire of the otherwise mediocre to cheat in sport."

All types of people cheat at sport - mediocre, good, elite, the best, male and female.
The following is a tragic example.

"Thomas, then 30 years old, looked like a man.
Her muscular arms and legs bulged beneath the tight fabric of her race uniform, and an Adam's apple appeared on her neck. Hair grew where it shouldn't, and, where it should, it began to recede. Her jaw line broadened. Her voice deepened. Her body thickened.
Hers was a body built by steroids. They were meant to make Thomas faster and more competitive, but they ultimately robbed her of her Olympic dreams, banned her forever from the sport she loves and left her with chronic health problems and an uncertain future."

eu.usatoday.com/story/sports/cycling/2013/03/01/doping-scandal-haunts-tammy-thomas/1958053/