Genital Inspections

[ASugarr]

The Florida House passed a bill on April 14, 2021, that would ban trans girls and women from playing on high school and collegiate teams. It would also allow schools to require a genital inspection of student athletes suspected of being trans.
t.co/CMRxJnHgV2

This is child sexual abuse. I hope this never ends up happening in the UK. Trans girls and women deserve to play in women's sports. Trans boys and men deserve to play in men's sports. Period.

Erkrie. “I would expect them to fess up that they were trans rather than let them go through that process of having to be checked”

Yes, absolutely this.

These hypothetical genital examinations would only be necessary if the trans person were participating in a sport under a false pretext (under the rules of this state).

If they were not participating in bad faith, but were unknowingly intersex, then in practice they would most likely have a chromosome test.

Oh God. This is like the Michael Phelps argument.

By that I mean 'some people have biological advantages, so why is this situation any different?'

If you were to plot all athletes on charts for body strength, pelvis width, arm length... almost any physical attribute... you would find the results clustered to form 2 bell curves. The bell curves would overlap, but there would be 2 peaks. If you then used different coloured markers for women and men, you would find women clustered around one bell curve and men around the other. There are ALWAYS outliers, but the two peaks of averages would be as plain as day.

Taking Michael Phelps, who is built to swim and has very unusual physical attributes that make him an incredible natural swimmer. He is extraordinary, but he still fits within the 'human male' bell curves.

On some curves, other men may be plotted higher up than he is. Some swimmers may have longer arms, for instance. He wouldn't be the top for everything when compared with other males.

Now take a similarly blessed woman. On the adult human female curve, she may be off the scale for some attributes that make her an ideal swimmer. She may have greater lung capacity, a narrower pelvis, a bigger heart...etc than other female swimmers. She would be an exceptionally gifted female swimmer and would even beat some males.

Would she ever, ever get close to most of the men in the centre of the men's bell curve, though? Nope. Not for 1 attribute.

So you would have 2 gifted, hard working swimmers with extraordinary body composition, but in a mixed sex competition, only one is going to even qualify.

Just on that sort of data alone it is clear to see that men and women are different and competition between the two would never be fair.

Never mind 'here's one time a woman beat a man'. So what?

Isnt that on the parents for not being truthful about gender and sex, the differences and realistic expectations?

What if they are poor and a genital exam is cheaper than lab tests?

Well that's quite a reach, and unlikely to happen, but if that's what they need to do then that's what they need to do.

What if the healthcare professional insists on a genital exam because, you know, some people are dodgy?

Well the same could be said for all the women that need genital exams every day. Should we stop those too?

What about the psychological, and social effects on a gender non-conforming girl who is required to take a test to prove she is a girl?

Somehow I doubt you care that much about the psychological impact on women and girls.

It's amazing to me the things GC people will wave by if they think it will help to exclude trans people.

Not exude. Ensure that things are fair for women and girls. It's trans rights activists that have caused this to happen. Shame on you.

If you read up, I raised those points, and we decided that just showing your birth certificate at the beginning of the season would solve most of those issues.

What do you think the psychological effect would be on this girl if she was told she was only allowed to play hockey with boys?

What do you think the psychological effect will be on girls if this transgirl injures them further down the line, or takes their sporting places that rightly belong to most talented biological women and girls?

Excellent clear post @lifeissweet thanks.

If you read up, I raised those points, and we decided that just showing your birth certificate at the beginning of the season would solve most of those issues.

Aside from the birth certificates that have been altered. It doesn't work anymore.

What do you think the psychological effect would be on this girl if she was told she was only allowed to play hockey with boys?

Maybe it's kinder for the adults around the child to explain at a young age that that's just life? That we can't always get what we want because we have to consider other people and not just ourselves?

What about the impact on girls who will lose scholarships, women who work their arses off and dedicate their lives to their sport that won't stand a chance of winning if they're up against a transwoman with the proven physical advantages? Don't those women and girls matter?

That boy should never have been encouraged by his parents to believe that he could change sex and become a girl. That's the actual child abuse here. He should have been encouraged to be a gender non conforming boy, if he wished to be, who enjoys playing on his boys Hockey team and is accepted by all. Like the boys who happen to be gay on my son's rugby and football teams. Yet more gay conversion attempts going on there.

Yes. It's all down to parenting.
That young hockey player should have been told from the moment she decided to transition that it is a social transition. That she can be treated like a girl, but can't actually be one (and all the therapy and psychological support possible should be provided to help her come to terms with that reality). It should not be a surprise to her as she grows that her male body is going to exclude her from some female spaces and sports.

Yes. It is a shame and it is sad and she will need a lot of support to come to terms with, but that is a fact.

My deaf DS has had to come to terms with a lot of things he will be unable to do. It is sad. It is disappointing. It is how life is.

It never fails to amaze me just how much TRA PP hate women. They hate women so much, they'll say up is down and black is white in order to push their hatred. Attack women for their bodies in order to say they are the same as men.

It's vile.

The solution to altered birth certificates is to not alter birth certificates for children.

I was concerned this rule would be brought in to spitefully nobble the opposing team, but I think since it's a formal complaint process that has to be carried out by a competing school, it will rule out most bogus queries.

I agree lifeissweet. Parents have a duty to manage their child's expectations if they tranistion. Not make the world a harder place for those born female by expecting them to budge up, no matter what the personal and physical cost is to them.

Beyond a certain age/level, to compete in most(all?) competitive sports proof of eligibility needs to be provided.
Never mind if it's a sunday football league or an international competition
This is standard and all teams will have records of their members proofs
So in practice, if this bill passes, what will happen is that the school/team will test everyone on the team as part of standard eligibitly. And if questioned will produce extant records.
There will be no pulling your pants down at the sidelines for the opposing coach to oggle at gentials

I prefer to think that trans kids could be included in the team matching their natal sex, rather than excluded from something. Think of the many benefits to society of widening the bandwidth of what it means to be (biologically) male. If teammates and coaches engage in bullying any gender NC member, that absolutely must be addressed through robust antibullying policies.

“Actually I strongly disagree. Many sports are mixed sex and women still trive and win

Dance. Cheerleading. Snooker. Croquet. And more”

Dance? Is not a sport. Also,
In ballet, the boys are taught separately to encourage the development of their male physique. Male dancers and female dancers have their own changing rooms and various ways of dressing.

Ballets are carefully choreographed to bring the dancers together safely as accidents really could happen. However, as choreography can create separate movements for each individual, no doubt unique qualities of men, women, trans men and trans women could be creatively used. It

Shizuku Because politicians who have no knowledge on what's going on on the ground and who want to score political points make statements or add things that in context don't make much sense, sometimes knowing it will likely lead to bill nor passing or being struck down in higher courts but it fits the ideology they want to project.

Kids in many states have been proving sex for sports for decades - I did it as a kid back in the '90s. It's unlikely this bill will even get through, but this part isn't new. I suspect, for males, it could easily be the scrotal check test (scrotal hernias can get nasty real fast) that is already required in some states as part of the physical that is required to take part in school sports.

There were times when I was a teenager that I passed as male, I have fond memories of little old ladies saying 'thank you, young man' when I held open doors for them. My schools still ensured I had safeguarding appropriate to my sex and that I was trained with the appropriate knowledge for my sex to prevent injury and allow me to win. What I looked like and how I felt didn't change that I was at greater risk and that I needed the knowledge of that to be able to give appropriate consent and keep myself safe in sports.

I was thrown against a wall by a boy whose voice hadn't even dropped yet, whose shoulders were far narrower than mine as I was over 3 years older than him, because we were the same weight but being male, he had more muscle within that weight. I had no issue proving my sex, I had no issue being told that if I wanted to participate in wrestling that I would have to do with boys though I'm glad most girls in the US don't have to do that anymore. I had more of an issue with the academic requirements to compete in sports as throughout my childhood I had to drop out for a term here and left out of a competition there because I hadn't been able to keep up academically and those activities were one of my only safe outlets as a mentally ill child.

I have a big issue with the idea that girls shouldn't be allowed to compete in any sports unless they're happy to take the risks of competing against a boy, more so if expected to do so without any warning or appropriate training to deal with the difference to keep her safe and give her a chance.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4219376-Bunburys-Twelfth-Public-Service-Announcement-First-steps-out-of-lockdown

@FreyaFolkvangr

OP I think this is so disingenuous of you.

I actually hate the idea of genital examinations. I don't want any child or teen to be put through that. It sounds violating when you think of that being a possibility. I don't believe that's what's going to happen, though, and you know what, if there were no males out there trying to cheat, this bill would never have been passed full stop. I say shame on any boy or man who tries to game the system by pretending they're female and shame on the adults who've tried to accommodate that cheating and told girls they just have to take this. It's theft, really, when you look at the financial losses an elite group of women face when they miss out on sports scholarships, jobs and sponsorship because males have taken their rightful spots.

That's the scandal here.

Excellent post. If only OP and Shizuku would understand it, maybe they'd stop wasting our time with their misleading, poor faith, 'you just hate trans people' utter nonsense.

Yes rather than males deciding they have the right to widen the bandwidth of what being female is to include them, they should look at widening the bandwidth of being male.

Back in the 1970s a male doctor used to attend our senior school to give a medical examination to each pupil (who undressed down to her underwear, possibly with her lab coat over the top while she waited, IIRC). As part of the exam, he pulled out the top of one's briefs & had a cursory look inside, which took me by surprise & amused/bemused me - what did he think he'd find, in an all-girls school?

Does this not happen any more? Was it child abuse?