Genital Inspections

[ASugarr]

The Florida House passed a bill on April 14, 2021, that would ban trans girls and women from playing on high school and collegiate teams. It would also allow schools to require a genital inspection of student athletes suspected of being trans.
t.co/CMRxJnHgV2

This is child sexual abuse. I hope this never ends up happening in the UK. Trans girls and women deserve to play in women's sports. Trans boys and men deserve to play in men's sports. Period.

Trans girls and women deserve to play in women's sports.

No, they absolutely do not "deserve" anything of the kind.

One of the bill’s opponents, Rep. Omari Hardy (D), said it would subject kids to “genital inspections.”

This thread is like that episode of Red Dwarf with the white hole where they keep getting stuck in a time loop.

So a nine year old boy who has been encouraged since they were five years old to believe they could be a girl will be disappointed because they have been told a lie and they cannot use their male advantage to outperform girls who may have been training and competing for years and destroy their sport by removing the level playing field that single sex sports represent.

I played croquet against my Dad a lot as a child, my Grannie had a pitch. I must suggest it to my teenage daughters.

I think it is glaringly obvious that many posts are , what was that Alan Clark phrase ? “Economical with the actualité “

When a poster comments about her daughter as follows: She would be traumatised by a male body in what she thought was a female only space. She'd be upset and hurt by the lying (FFS say it's mixed sex sports / toilets / changing rooms if it is) and she'd feel threatened. Which is rape culture .

The OP responds saying:
I don't personally agree (especially with the reference to rape culture as trans women/girls are women/girls). I know it isn't an easy subject and it's clear no ones mind would be change online but I just want to say as a woman myself who supports children and has siblings myself that I care for, this does not concern me

At a time when young women are speaking about about the torrent of sexual abuse / harassment that they have experienced in schools, it's depressing to see a poster unconcerned about their rights to privacy from the opposite sex when undressing / showering.

@Tibtom

So a nine year old boy who has been encouraged since they were five years old to believe they could be a girl will be disappointed because they have been told a lie and they cannot use their male advantage to outperform girls who may have been training and competing for years and destroy their sport by removing the level playing field that single sex sports represent.

Sums it up well.

Now that we have established that no Floridian athlete will have to submit to a genital inspection and male born trans athletes have an insurmountable, scientifically proved advantage over female athletes I am away to have a lazy Sunday Brunch. Bye all.

I hope this never ends up happening in the UK.

Both The Equality Act and the Gender Recognition Act recognise that sports are a sex affected activity.
Sex affected activities can remain single sex, regardless of gender identity, even after a GRC has been awarded.

Probably best to use accredited scientific sources for your arguments, as others have done, instead of posting a link to a YouTube video by an obviously very biased trans person?

If Governor Ron DeSantis signs HB 1475 into law, she would have to compete on the boys’ team.

In that case, “she just won’t play at all” Jaime Jara, of Kissimmee, said in an interview. “That’s not who she is, so that’s not even an option for her.”

Well, it is an option, a fair one. If Dempsey doesn't want to take it, that's Dempsey's choice.

Women and girls deserve access to safe, fair sport. I'm glad it's being recognised.

Why can’t it just be accepted that the world isn’t fair? Someone might really want to be a supermodel but isn’t tall/thin/pretty enough. To make this fair the designers would have to make their clothes in many different sizes to cater to the different models, something they might not have time to do.

Someone might want to go into banking to make lots of money but can’t grasp the financial knowledge needed to succeed. To make this fair people have to accept that the unqualified banker might make a massive loss of millions of pounds, leading to many people losing their money.

Someone wants to be a pilot but is visually impaired so is not allowed. To make this fair we have to put airline passengers at risk.

A trans woman might want to play on a female only team/take part in female category sports but can’t because they are not a natal female. To make this fair we have to screw over girls and women who have been training their whole life to succeed in their field.

The world is not fair and equal. It never has been and never will be. We simply have to weigh up the risks and go for the safest option.

The bill, which is modeled after an Idaho law that was temporarily struck down by a federal judge last year, allows a school or competitor to lodge a complaint about an athlete competing in a girls’ or woman’s sport. If the party complaining suspects the athlete was not assigned the female gender at birth, the athlete in question will have to prove their birth gender — via a genetic test, a test of their testosterone levels or an examination of their reproductive anatomy by a medical professional — in order to compete.*

Again a comment from a biased source when the original wording is available in the thread.

Here is the original source again:

”The bill would also allow the school or another party to “dispute” a student’s gender, which would then require the student to provide proof of biological sex from a health care provider through either a physical exam, a genetic test, or proof of testosterone levels.”

Can I check that you understand the meaning of the words “either” and “or” in this statement? They mean that you, in consultation with your medical provider, can choose only one of the options and will at no point be forced to undergo all of them.

The only situation I am concerned about is a group of say, thirteen year old girls turning up to a sports meet and then one of them being singled out as needing a sex test to continue. I think this could be deeply embarrassing for a natal female (tough on transgirls, they shouldn't be there).

I'm perfectly ready to be assuaged on this concern and think it's quite simple to avoid this happening by requiring documentation for everyone up front. I don't know what the laws are on this in the US though, with regard to changing sex on the birth certificates of minors and the like.

I don't think the issue is in elite sports - it's been stated testing is quite regular at this level, but in the minor leagues, where things may not be so formal and organised. I think it could be quite horrible for children to have to go through if they were singled out and if it was being used in that way, I would rather see it being applied to all girls, not just those deemed to be a bit butch.

I am quite happy to agree that I often catastrophise and that my concern may not actually happen in practise, with common sense instead being applied. I'd imagine most people are aware who is and isn't actually female and I'd like to think that the law wouldn't be applied in spite.

@risefromyourgrave
Too right! The problem is that many people still don't understand this. We can only encourage fairness up to a point otherwise everyone would logically end up in a category of one. And it is pointless to argue that mixed sex sports are fair. They only seem fair if you have absolutely no empathy for women and girls.

You know that the mother of the transitioned kid who has spoken out in Texas used to beat him when he was a toddler don't you? She's on record saying it. She didn't want a gay little boy so she punished him if he chose to play with 'girls' toys.

That's the sort of parenting you're championing. It's abusive.

@ASugarr please can you answer my question that you keep swerving. It is a real situation not a hypothetical dilemma.

@ASugarr

Here are some resources to check out on Trans men and women in sports: Sources: Joanna Harper's study on 8 transgender athletes: pdfs.semanticscholar.org/1e6a Berman et. al: academic.oup.com/jcem/article Joanna Harper on Trans Athletes: www.kinesophy.com/joanna-harp Joanna Harper, The Jim Jefferies Show: USA Powerlifting on Transgender Athletes: www.usapowerlifting.com/trans

Hey @ASugarr, I read the last article you linked in this post About the US Powerlifting org. They say pretty clearly that it's unfair for transgender athletes to compete as the gender they identify with They give a very clear explanation

I think you should maybe read the article (especially as you posted it)
An excerpt from the Q&A

Q – Why are you discriminatory towards transgender athletes?
A – While the term discrimination is used to catch the attention of the public, it is most often misused. We are a sports organization with rules and policies. They apply to everyone to provide a level playing field. We have restriction such as age eligibility, who can compete as at our national events and so on. No, you are not discriminated against because you are a 40-year-old college student that is not allowed to compete at Collegiate Nationals. No, we are not discriminating against your 7-year-old daughter by not letting her compete. It is simply the rules of this sport that all must be follow if we are to be fair playing field. Another example, males are not allowed to use testosterone and to do so provides him an advantage. A master aged male cannot raise his natural testosterone level. Physicians frequently prescribe levels of androgens that are consistent with much younger men than the age of the patient. USA Powerlifting is not discriminating against master lifters who use testosterone for medical reasons. They may just not compete on our platform based on the drug testing policy.

@Nellodee

The only situation I am concerned about is a group of say, thirteen year old girls turning up to a sports meet and then one of them being singled out as needing a sex test to continue. I think this could be deeply embarrassing for a natal female (tough on transgirls, they shouldn't be there).

I'm perfectly ready to be assuaged on this concern and think it's quite simple to avoid this happening by requiring documentation for everyone up front. I don't know what the laws are on this in the US though, with regard to changing sex on the birth certificates of minors and the like.

I don't think the issue is in elite sports - it's been stated testing is quite regular at this level, but in the minor leagues, where things may not be so formal and organised. I think it could be quite horrible for children to have to go through if they were singled out and if it was being used in that way, I would rather see it being applied to all girls, not just those deemed to be a bit butch.

I am quite happy to agree that I often catastrophise and that my concern may not actually happen in practise, with common sense instead being applied. I'd imagine most people are aware who is and isn't actually female and I'd like to think that the law wouldn't be applied in spite.

As another parent posted downthread, she has to show her children's birth certificates to prove they're competing on the right team. This doesn't have to be traumatic in any way.

We should all be supporting fair competition

That sounds totally fine to me. Show your birth certificate to register. If you are competing at the top level and busting records by miles at every race, then a further medical investigation can be requested to rule out an intersex condition like Semenya's.

Can sex be changed on birth certificates for minors in the US?

@lonel

So could you actually answer my question then? Do you think my athletic daughter should accept that she:

• is unlikely to win against males but who cares it's only girls who are losing out, right?
• retrain to become a croquest champion?

Girls can beat boys at sports. They've done so many times.

*So could you actually answer my question then? Do you think my athletic daughter should accept that she:

• is unlikely to win against males but who cares it's only girls who are losing out, right?
• retrain to become a croquest champion?*

I agree. The reality is that in most sports people who have a Y chromosome will have a physiological advantage. Because that’s biology. Greater lung capacity, muscle function etc. Nothing to do with discrimination or trans phobia.

This has been a big thing in the sports one if my (adult) kids is in. It’s a very physical and contact sport. The average height of women players is roughly 5’10 so not short and a trans woman who is 6’3 and built like a brick outhouse was outraged they were not eligible for women’s competition. It was deemed that they had grossly unfair competitive advantage and it was considered dangerous for other women players in a contact clash.

You will get two scenarios with this:
Biological XY who identify as male but are so driven in a sport they would prefer to win as a woman than lose as a man.
Biological XY who genuinely identify as female but in the majority of sports their biological make-up gives a grossly fair advantage when competing against biological XX. How is that fair, and if it’s allowed you would have most biological XX drop out of competitive sport because it’s an unfair competition.

OP. Do you understand that genital inspections are not required by the bill? That other options are given?

Can you give a straight answer to that question?

Girls can beat boys at sports.
No. You are not going to claim this. Overall boys are faster than girls. Have a look at the world record times- why do you think there is a difference? At my daughter's athletics club almost all the boys are faster than the fastest girls. Why?

@lonel

Girls can beat boys at sports. No. You are not going to claim this. Overall boys are faster than girls. Have a look at the world record times- why do you think there is a difference? At my daughter's athletics club almost all the boys are faster than the fastest girls. Why?

www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2019/05/13/sport/girl-soccer-team-boys-intl-scli/index.html

@lonel

Girls can beat boys at sports. No. You are not going to claim this. Overall boys are faster than girls. Have a look at the world record times- why do you think there is a difference? At my daughter's athletics club almost all the boys are faster than the fastest girls. Why?

www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-51666728.amp