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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Genital Inspections

999 replies

ASugarr · 18/04/2021 05:24

The Florida House passed a bill on April 14, 2021, that would ban trans girls and women from playing on high school and collegiate teams. It would also allow schools to require a genital inspection of student athletes suspected of being trans.
t.co/CMRxJnHgV2

This is child sexual abuse. I hope this never ends up happening in the UK. Trans girls and women deserve to play in women's sports. Trans boys and men deserve to play in men's sports. Period.

OP posts:
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porridgecake · 18/04/2021 11:30

Girls can beat boys at sports. They've done so many times.

Which sports? Which girls? I think stating this with evidence is very important in order to verify the statement. I am thinking it might be possible in dressage or chess, for example, but probably not in weight lifting or running.

HoppingPavlova · 18/04/2021 11:31

Girls can beat boys at sports. They've done so many times.

This only works to a certain age, and in fact during a slight window in childhood, girls are more likely to win against boys as they have raced ahead physically so they have an advantage. Once you get to young adolescence the girls/boys are equal no longer holds true. A trans woman will naturally have greater lung capacity, muscle strength and build than a XX person and post early adolescence it is a very unfair advantage in competitive sport. Unless it’s giant chess or something without a physical component.

ASugarr · 18/04/2021 11:31

@porridgecake

Girls can beat boys at sports. They've done so many times.

Which sports? Which girls? I think stating this with evidence is very important in order to verify the statement. I am thinking it might be possible in dressage or chess, for example, but probably not in weight lifting or running.

I've just linked some:

www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-51666728.amp

www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2019/05/13/sport/girl-soccer-team-boys-intl-scli/index.html

OP posts:
Tibtom · 18/04/2021 11:33

Serena Williams could beat my husband at Tennis and Ellie Symonds (Paraolympian) cluld beat him in swimming. So?

Changemusthappen · 18/04/2021 11:34

I really agree with the drug testing, I've said this on other threads. Anyone taking drugs should not be allowed to compete.

I think all sensible adults understand that the bill will not require athletes to drop their pants for an inspection but clearly what the bill is trying to do is to stop people cheating.

Essentially what the OP Is saying is this. Lets say you have twins, a boy and a girl, both compete at the same sport at a high level, for arguments sake lets say swimming. The boy announces that he now wants to be a girl and therefore will compete with the girls. This will mean his sister will miss out on a place, maybe a scholarship. In fact it means his sister, all her female friends, all the girls who have worked their hardest to improve times, make the team. None of the parents I know would allow their child to do this, it is cheating, pure and simple.

It seems to me that they are just trying to find the easiest, most dignified way of ensuring competitors compete in the correct sex category. Which is the way sport should be played.

roarfeckingroarr · 18/04/2021 11:34

Not you again

NotBadConsidering · 18/04/2021 11:35

The only reason either of those stories are stories is because of the truly exceptional circumstances of females beating males. The fact it’s a rare occurrence is why it’s made the news.

Exceptional rare circumstances occurring do not mean women and girls are on a level playing field with men and boys.

boysvswomen.com/#/

Do you care about the hundreds of women and girls whose lives have been negatively affected by males in their sport, OP?

northstars · 18/04/2021 11:36

OP, are you being deliberately obtuse or do you genuinely believe what you are saying? the two examples you have linked to above have made the news PRECISELY because they are so unusual (one was even described as “historic” in the article, I believe.

Why do you hate women and girls so much? Confused

RabbitOfCaerbannog · 18/04/2021 11:36

"If you know sport, you know this beyond a reasonable doubt: there is an average 10-12% performance gap between elite males and elite females. The gap is smaller between elite females and non-elite males, but it’s still insurmountable and that’s ultimately what matters. Translating these statistics into real world results, we see, for example, that:
Just in the single year 2017, Olympic, World, and U.S. Champion Tori Bowie's 100 meters lifetime best of 10.78 was beaten 15,000 times by men and boys. (Yes, that’s the right number of zeros.)
The same is true of Olympic, World, and U.S. Champion Allyson Felix’s 400 meters lifetime best of 49.26. Just in the single year 2017, men and boys around the world outperformed her more than 15,000 times."

law.duke.edu/sports/sex-sport/comparative-athletic-performance/

Bearsinmotion · 18/04/2021 11:37

Disabled people have had to endure invasive tests for categories in disability sport. I have to wonder what would happen if able bodied athletes insisted on competing in categories they identified with (and trans abled people do exist) but insisting the tests that apply to disabled participants simply don’t apply to them.

There are reasons so many sports are sex segregated.

Nellodee · 18/04/2021 11:37

Time to put the kettle on.

youvegottenminuteslynn · 18/04/2021 11:37

@youvegottenminuteslynn

OP. Do you understand that genital inspections are not required by the bill? That other options are given?

Can you give a straight answer to that question?

OP?
lonel · 18/04/2021 11:37

Yes you have linked to two examples but that actually doesn't prove what you are trying to say - which is far from clear since a few pages back you said some sports should be segregated. You gave croquet and chess (not a sport btw) as examples. In athletics there are clear differences between the sexes- this is not disputed. Are you now saying that mixed sex athletics would be fair? Why do you think that overall women are so much slower then? That they're just not trying hard enough? I think your sexism is showing.

SorryAuntLydia · 18/04/2021 11:39

@youvegottenminuteslynn

OP. Do you understand that genital inspections are not required by the bill? That other options are given?

Can you give a straight answer to that question?

In case you missed this @ASugarr
northstars · 18/04/2021 11:39

OP, you seem to have no idea what you’re talking about. Not to mention banging on about “forced genital inspections”, which was debunked many, many times. Your posts are truly tedious.

acatcalledjohn · 18/04/2021 11:39

Dance. Cheerleading. Snooker. Croquet. And more.

This undermines your entire argument. These sports aren't affected by hormonal and other sex based differences in the same way that rugby, basketball, tennis, etc are.

Compare the 100m WRs for example. Usain Bolt ran a new WR in 9.58s in 2009. The female WR is 10.49s. It maybe less than a second slower but bear in mind Florence Griffith Joyner ran that in 1988. So in the last 37 (!) years no woman has beaten the record.

But they can compete against men?

Sure.

And I haven't even started on contact sports yet.

ASugarr · 18/04/2021 11:40

@northstars

OP, are you being deliberately obtuse or do you genuinely believe what you are saying? the two examples you have linked to above have made the news PRECISELY because they are so unusual (one was even described as “historic” in the article, I believe.

Why do you hate women and girls so much? Confused

There's more than just those instances. There are loads. You can think it's because I hate women or something but that would be rather ironic. I mean if you are happy for it to be sex segregated and for this to happen then fine. But I would disagree. committedconservative.com/2018/02/25/boy-beats-girl-texas-state-girls-wrestling-championship/
OP posts:
Erkrie · 18/04/2021 11:41

Oh well, good news anyway. It's time we had some fairness for women and girls. Right, time for a cuppa and a late breakfast! Happy days.

RabbitOfCaerbannog · 18/04/2021 11:41

I know this is controversial because of arguments about fair pay for women in football - particularly in the US - but this is the reality and it's happened over and over...

Manchester United women beaten 9-0 by Salford youth team

https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/football/6881715/manchester-united-women-beaten-9-0-by-salford-youth-team-triggers-vile-sexist-abuse-on-twitter/

-

Swedish football ladies beaten by teen boys--

https://www.thelocal.se/20130116/4564646----/--

Australian women's national team lose 7-0 to team of 15-year-old boys*

https://www.standard.co.uk/sport/football/australian-women-s-national-team-lose-70-to-team-of-15yearold-boys-a3257266.html

-
FC Dallas under-15 boys squad beat the U.S. Women's National Team

https://www.cbssports.com/soccer/news/a-dallas-fc-under-15-boys-squad-beat-the-u-s-womens-national-team-in-a-scrimmage/

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 18/04/2021 11:42

I do enjoy hearing the TA arguments. Tissue paper thin, every single one of them.

This is what happens when you are indulged in #nodebate, you land up with assumptions which have not been challenged. And then you are daft enough to present them to Mumsnet, full of women who have been challenged on every single fucking thing since we were 12 years old.

It must feel very unsettling, hope you are ok, OP. Nothing you have been lead to believe is real or true. Sex is real, and it's best we don't pretend otherwise. It must be difficult to emerge from a silo and be faced with a barrage of "yeah, but, no - and here is the long list of evidence supporting the "no""

lonel · 18/04/2021 11:42

There's more than just those instances. There are loads
Stop looking for individual cases to try and prove your unprovable point. Earlier you said some sports should be sex segregated - have you changed your mind then?

Erkrie · 18/04/2021 11:42

if you are happy for it to be sex segregated and for this to happen then fine. But I would disagree

Super happy for it to be sex segregated. Seems that the powers that be agree with that. Disappointing for you I'm sure. Never mind.

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 18/04/2021 11:44

able bodied athletes insisted on competing in categories they identified with (and trans abled people do exist)

I remember an interview with an athlete who wryly said that most of the time everyone is minimising their disabilities and getting round them but for the categorisation assessments for the Paralympics, everyone is trying to get into a class by exaggerating the impact of them. It's standard gaming of anything with a threshold - as with weight classes for horse-racing, martial arts, boxing etc.

In the case we're discussing here - you're spot on that this is an attempt to remove thresholds altogether. And it's getting to be the logical outcome of a slew of legislation in various areas related to the general topic.

AngelicInnocent · 18/04/2021 11:44

As I mentioned previously, yes in our martial art, we have some mixed sex events and absolutely, the females can beat the males because they are about displaying precision and technique. No way no how could the females win in the full contact sparring. Most of the experienced 13 year old boys would beat any of the womens team.

Maduixa · 18/04/2021 11:45

The Florida House passed a bill on April 14, 2021, that would ban trans girls and women from playing on high school and collegiate teams. It would also allow schools to require a genital inspection of student athletes suspected of being trans.

CS/HB 1475 - Sex-specific Student Athletic Teams or Sports, which is now before the Florida State Senate, does neither of these things. Full text of the current version is available here and the full legislative history including amendments adopted and voted down in the House is here. And - sorry, not sure if this is accessible outside the US - more detail on the House discussions is here. I don't see the Representative that allegedly endorses this "genital inspections!" moral panic showing up.

The proposed legislation doesn’t mention genital inspections; the only possibly relevant text is (lines 59-66): "The health care provider may verify the student's biological sex as part of a routine sports physical examination by relying only on one or more of the following: The student's reproductive anatomy; The student's genetic makeup; or The student's normal endogenously produced testosterone levels."

In real life, an annual physical for teenagers attending a US public school (and certainly for most involved in competitive sport) includes lying down on a table in your underpants only and a semi-transparent “johnny”. I apologise for the crudity, but this thread has a lot of delusion in it: in the vast majority of cases, no one has to touch or even bare your genitals to know what’s up. And that’s for kids who show up from abroad; US public school children will have a medical record which follows them (as long as they stay in the US) since they first started school, as they’d be obliged to show, at the very least, a vaccination history. The idea that a child’s paediatrician doesn’t know the child’s sex is disingenuous.

The bill would also allow the school or another party to “dispute” a student’s gender, which would then require the student to provide proof of biological sex from a health care provider through either a physical exam, a genetic test, or proof of testosterone levels.”

This is exactly (apart from the conflation of gender and sex) what the bill seeks to PREVENT, by empowering the school to obtain and record this information up front - which they would do, as (if the bill passes) the school would then become the legally responsible party rather than any regional, state, or national bodies.

Many sports are mixed sex and women still (s)trive and win. Sure, and the bill explicitly acknowledges this, categorising competitive categories as all male, all female, or co-ed. The co-ed category is exempt from any of this.

Yet in primary schools in the UK you tend to change infront of others and play PE games with members of the opposite sex. True in the US too (except there normally would be separate locker rooms) - but this legislation specifically applies to secondary (12+) and tertiary (18+) education.

RE birth certificates, each US state issues its own and laws vary widely about what sexes can be recorded and how and when they can be changed. In California, for example, it is possible to have a birth certificate issued with sex of M, F, X, or blank, with the opportunity (but not the requirement) to amend later on. This was designed to address certain specific intersex conditions, but is not limited to such cases. Therefore, in some cases there is no legal record of sex.

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