Genital Inspections

[ASugarr]

The Florida House passed a bill on April 14, 2021, that would ban trans girls and women from playing on high school and collegiate teams. It would also allow schools to require a genital inspection of student athletes suspected of being trans.
t.co/CMRxJnHgV2

This is child sexual abuse. I hope this never ends up happening in the UK. Trans girls and women deserve to play in women's sports. Trans boys and men deserve to play in men's sports. Period.

I doubt very much any genital exams will be required

Agreed - as stated upthread, people might be asked for a note from their doctor, maybe a cheek swab etc. The OP is based upon a very sensationalist interpretation of the underlying legislation and news reports.

My goodness. It takes me back to being at (Catholic) school and the rumour/lie that if you answered 'Yes' to the question, "Do you have a boyfriend" then "They look down your knickers." It just shows - teenage misrepresentation persists because it's modern clickbait.

Conveniently in the UK all children receive a physical examination including examination of genitals at birth and at around 6 weeks which is considered to be beneficial to them as it is designed to exclude various health problems that might need treatment. In the states I imagine it is a similar situation. So all children will have in their records documentation of a physical examination that confirms their biological sex so no special examinations just for the purposes of sports should ever be needed should they?

You could question whether it's reasonable to expect children to give access to their medical records for the purposes of playing sport but I imagine a simple letter confirming their biological sex wouldn't be that intrusive if somewhat annoying as an extra task for the doctor.

@Bearsinmotion

Why are sports sex-segregated?

Probably because being a Natal Male gives strength? Men have a higher muscle to fat ratio, and this could be hugely to their advantage in a competition.

At our school, Boys and girls had different races and events.

To me it sounds fair.

Yet in primary schools in the UK you tend to change infront of others and play PE games with members of the opposite sex.

Do you know anything about children's needs and behaviours in primary school? Seriously?

And yes, PE does have mixed sex games. There are plenty of mixed sex opportunities for sports as you have been told time and time again on this thread!! So, what.

It does not change the need for segregating sex for sport when that is appropriate and needed! Why on earth do you think playing mixed sex PE changes anything?

So basically the thing is, if your child was asked to have a genital exam/inspection as they suspected they were transgender or the opposite gender, would you allow that to happen? Would that be okay?

Yes if its the only way to ensure their safety then yes.

Because to me I really wouldn't be okay with that. Regardless if my child was cisgender or transgender

Well you wouldn't be would you. Because you dont recognise the danger of mixed sports. Maybe if/when you have children, esp if you have a girl, you might change your mind on that one though.

As an aside to ASugar, I don't believe you have children according to the public information you post about yourself. I know you have a transmale brother and, I think, though you haven't elaborated, work with children in some capacity. But you seem very ignorant of children's experience today though and I feel it is quite entitled of you to come onto a site where many if not most of the posters will have or have had young children. Male and female children do not get changed together for PE in the UK after about KS1, so about 6 or 7, and haven't done in the 15 years since I've had children. They are also taught about consent and permission for access to their "private parts" from a very young age. I have 4 boys and each of them would have been traumatised to have had to change in front of the girls in their class, even if they saw nothing, after the age of about 10, which is when puberty starts to kick in. I can only imagine, from my own experience, that girls feel exactly the same. Similarly I have had to produce their birth certificates on an annual basis for them to play non competitively in the local footbal, cricket and rugby leagues. One of them has a sports scholarship at school and he was asked for a medical examination, by our GP, at which I was present, with a report given to the school.

You need to spend more time fact checking ASugar as you keep coming on here and making yourself look silly, which is a shame, as I don't doubt you are coming to this with good intentions and care and love for your brother, if not for women and Mumsnet users. I note that despite your initiall misrepresentation and MN quote harvesting to gain twitter followers, you have stayed to debate, which is positive, I think. I hope you are learning something, as well as attempting to educate us all into rightthink which you must see, is never going to happen. I also hope you are looking after your mental health and I worry that you are up at 5 in the morning posting about this he

@ASugarr

The Florida House passed a bill on April 14, 2021, that would ban trans girls and women from playing on high school and collegiate teams. It would also allow schools to require a genital inspection of student athletes suspected of being trans. t.co/CMRxJnHgV2

This is child sexual abuse. I hope this never ends up happening in the UK. Trans girls and women deserve to play in women's sports. Trans boys and men deserve to play in men's sports. Period.

If trans girls and women are allowed to compete against biologically born females, there will soon be no point in the biologically born women taking part in many sports, as they cannot compete fairly.

For most sports, the male record is immensely better than the female record! For example, if you consider the World 200m record, the men’s record is over 2 seconds quicker than the women’s record. Therefore if a second rate male runner changed gender, to run as a female, they would undoubtedly beat even the best biologically born females! The OP doesn’t see that as a problem, but I’m pretty sure the immensely talented Dina Asher-Smith (top British female sprinter) and her supporters would!

Let's shatter theses old paradigms and have new catagories for TW and TM.

It would be exceptionally liberating for all to be acknowledged for who they are and not have to shoehorn themselves into catagories they are not suited to.

Exactly but if we are going to be specific this is aimed at children, meaning at the oldest 16. The article is talking about both pubesent and pre-pubesent children.

And the Australian study that was part of the Hilton and Lundberg review also showed that there are physical advantages even from around 6 years old.

Please start addressing the science that is relevant to this bill being put in place rather than focusing on the emotive language.

@Nodal

As an aside to ASugar, I don't believe you have children according to the public information you post about yourself. I know you have a transmale brother and, I think, though you haven't elaborated, work with children in some capacity. But you seem very ignorant of children's experience today though and I feel it is quite entitled of you to come onto a site where many if not most of the posters will have or have had young children. Male and female children do not get changed together for PE in the UK after about KS1, so about 6 or 7, and haven't done in the 15 years since I've had children. They are also taught about consent and permission for access to their "private parts" from a very young age. I have 4 boys and each of them would have been traumatised to have had to change in front of the girls in their class, even if they saw nothing, after the age of about 10, which is when puberty starts to kick in. I can only imagine, from my own experience, that girls feel exactly the same. Similarly I have had to produce their birth certificates on an annual basis for them to play non competitively in the local footbal, cricket and rugby leagues. One of them has a sports scholarship at school and he was asked for a medical examination, by our GP, at which I was present, with a report given to the school.

You need to spend more time fact checking ASugar as you keep coming on here and making yourself look silly, which is a shame, as I don't doubt you are coming to this with good intentions and care and love for your brother, if not for women and Mumsnet users. I note that despite your initiall misrepresentation and MN quote harvesting to gain twitter followers, you have stayed to debate, which is positive, I think. I hope you are learning something, as well as attempting to educate us all into rightthink which you must see, is never going to happen. I also hope you are looking after your mental health and I worry that you are up at 5 in the morning posting about this he

And once again, why do you have to make anything like this personal? I don't do that to any of you. I was actually up at 5 because I wanted to be. Please leave personal assumptions out of this. Because that is what gets theads deleted where you and others do this and it's very insulting.

Asugar

I'm not sure quite what you're asking me here...

If my hypothetical DD thought they were transgender, it would have no bearing on the situation I don't think (unless I'm missing something). She would still have to have something to prove that she is female and the age she claims to be in order to participate in her chosen sport.

Usually, her birth certificate would be fine for that purpose, so it's a moot point. If, for some reason, it wasn't possible to prove it that way then yes. I think I would be ok with it. Bodies are nothing to be ashamed of. My DC are taught the pants rule and know they shouldn't be asked to show their private parts to others, but that does not include to an HCP with a parent supervising.

I think moral panic about doctors seeing genitals is a bit much. They see a lot of them!

Although if a parent did have a transgirl that wanted to play sport, I would expect them to fess up that they were trans rather than let them go through that process of having to be checked. Why would a parent do that knowing that their child will be found out and thus be unable to play. It serves no purpose whatsoever. Now that would abusive.

@SoupDragon

I do agree that genital inspections is wrong.

I completely disagree that sports shouldn't be segregated by biological sex. The only ones where males and females could compete evenly are those that do not require physical competition with one another.

Okay thank you. I understand the larger subject of single sex sports is much bigger than this but I'm glad I'm not alone in thinking genital examinations are not okay just because someone is doing better than others or appear the opposite sex.

@doublehalo

Let's shatter theses old paradigms and have new catagories for TW and TM.

It would be exceptionally liberating for all to be acknowledged for who they are and not have to shoehorn themselves into catagories they are not suited to.

I think that would be absolutely the best option

Haven't read the whole thread yet but really ASugarr your arguments are risible.

Actually I strongly disagree. Many sports are mixed sex and women still trive and win

Dance. Cheerleading. Snooker. Croquet. And more

Dance isn't a sport. Nor is cheerleading. Croquet - really? It's a pastime provided at posh country house hotels. The only genuine competitive sport you can come up with is snooker and even there don't men have an advantage because of body and arm length?

You could have mentioned equestrian sports which seems to be only sport where genuinely men and women can compete equally.

And you don't think it's insulting telling women with children that they should allow mixed sex sports? You don't know anything personal about me because I'm an anonymous poster on an anonymous forum. You are the one who linked your MN posting name to your public twitter account. Everyone told you at the time it was a bad idea. And yes it's annoying when threads get detailed and deleted isn't it? That's what we've had to put up with for years because of people like you causing twitter pile-ons. Again, I hope you are learning.

I think moral panic about doctors seeing genitals is a bit much. They see a lot of them

Indeed. I've lost count of the amount of times ive had to have a genital inspection. 🤷‍♀️

I'm sorry but that is unacceptable. Not everyone who is transgender has the biological advantage and wants others to know they are transgender. That is why this bill and the idea of separated categories isn't okay.

OP have you actually read the bill?

Do you understand that it does not say at any point that a genital inspection will be mandatory?

That it in fact gives a number of options including a simple letter of confirmation from a doctor?

It's OK if you didn't realise that until people pointed out but it would be decent to acknowledge that the bill lists options and does not require a genital inspection.

You haven't acknowledged this, you just quoted someone commenting on the bill. Have you actually read the bill and do you now understand the fact it gives a number of options, as I've outlined above?

"Let's shatter theses old paradigms and have new catagories for TW and TM.

It would be exceptionally liberating for all to be acknowledged for who they are and not have to shoehorn themselves into catagories they are not suited to"

Yes! Let's celebrate trans athletes by centering them in their own categories. I'm not being sarcastic--giving more athletes a chance to enjoy and win at sport surely is a good thing!

I’m surprised so many people don’t think that sports should be sex segregated. Boys are usually much bigger and stronger than girls once they hit puberty.

@Nodal

And you don't think it's insulting telling women with children that they should allow mixed sex sports? You don't know anything personal about me because I'm an anonymous poster on an anonymous forum. You are the one who linked your MN posting name to your public twitter account. Everyone told you at the time it was a bad idea. And yes it's annoying when threads get detailed and deleted isn't it? That's what we've had to put up with for years because of people like you causing twitter pile-ons. Again, I hope you are learning.

Again, don't bring personal shit into this. I've not requested pile ons or anything. Ever. Ive asked for MumsNet to be held responsible for transphobia on their website. That is all. If you are upset with that, that's not my problem. Because if you can't care for others who don't think or are the same as you then I can't help that.

I don't think anyone anywhere has suggested genital inspections of schoolchildren "because they are doing better than others." Schools will (should) have records including a child's birth sex, so the scenario you propose is another strawman.

Are you actually saying you want trans people to be able to sneak into the opposite sex teams without anyone knowing? That's very dishonest.

"Because if you can't care for others who don't think or are the same as you then I can't help that."

Can you please address the racism and classism mentioned above then.