Genital Inspections

[ASugarr]

The Florida House passed a bill on April 14, 2021, that would ban trans girls and women from playing on high school and collegiate teams. It would also allow schools to require a genital inspection of student athletes suspected of being trans.
t.co/CMRxJnHgV2

This is child sexual abuse. I hope this never ends up happening in the UK. Trans girls and women deserve to play in women's sports. Trans boys and men deserve to play in men's sports. Period.

@CousinKrispy it still is! Was pretty shocked when I moved over to the UK and annual physicals were not "a thing".

@lonel

Yet in primary schools in the UK you tend to change infront of others and play PE games with members of the opposite sex. Pre-puberty there are minimal differences between sexes. Post-puberty there are hige differences. It is weird explaining this to (presumably) another human being! How can you not be aware of this?!

Yes this. Everyone knows this of course, it just suits some to pretend they don't.

It's all part of the 'a qualified medical doctor doing an exam in the presence of a parent is child abuse but forcing girls to see boys dicks without consent in a totally uncontrolled environment isn't' fantasy.

I think it's pretty clear on this thread who REALLY cares about child dignity, privacy and safety.

According to Olympian Sharron Davies who underwent sex tests, the only thing necessary is a cheek swab test. This post is based on 2 falsehoods . 1. genital inspection will be required - totally false 2 Transwomen have no advantages over women in sport - utter nonsense and all creditable scientific research proves this.

My family are heavily involved in a martial art and have competed at international levels from being 7 years old.

We have various categories
Patterns - performing a proscribed set of techniques in sequence to the best of your ability. Mixed sex as there is jo reason why men and women can't both perform these to the same standards.

Self defence-a demonstration of self defence techniques. Mixed sex as above.

Full contact sparring- basically a fight with kicking to the body and over 14 to the head. It should be obvious why mixed sex is not appropriate. Fortunately, our governing body has held firm and insists that biological males will compete as males.

Last time I looked the top snooker players were all male. Females can't compete as well as boobs get in the way of some shots when you have to stretch over table. I say this as a person who plays snooker.

Exactly but if we are going to be specific this is aimed at children, meaning at the oldest 16. The article is talking about both pubesent and pre-pubesent children.

In your OP it says "high school and collegiate teams." So unless I've seriously misunderstood the US school system it isn't talking about pre-pubesent children, or only ones under 16

And in my primary school, boys and girls were seperated for changing. Any sports played were a mixed team competing against another mixed team. And at primary age, fairly evenly matched, nothing at all like post puberty. So all in all, a moot point.

I do agree that genital inspections is wrong.

I completely disagree that sports shouldn't be segregated by biological sex. The only ones where males and females could compete evenly are those that do not require physical competition with one another.

@caringcarer

I think there should be separate categories for males and females. If a physical inspection of genitalia is required then a GP should be able to write a confirmation note. There will always be an occasional case like Casta Semena who is outwardly female genetalia but has internal testis that produce high.levels of testosterone. A better test might be to do a blood test that can measure testosterone in the body.

This is exactly what makes me thinks The original OP is absolute bollocks. There is no way the sporting governing bodies of a US state would not know about the Caster semenya case that's currently going through the courts. An actual physical examination of the genitals could never be definitive for what sex you are, even though it will be in 99.9% of cases, because there are DSDs that present with ambiguous genitalia, and these are (actually) on a spectrum. So you could have a male prepubescent child with normal looking female genitals (what is normal anyway?, there is a huge variation even among non DSD males and females). So a chromosome test via a cheek swab is the only way to be sure whether someone is male, female or has a DSD. I guess you wouldn't expect this level of checking for kids to play in local football leagues but for scholarships and the Olympics it is already part of the "physical exam" the team doctor does.

Exactly but if we are going to be specific this is aimed at children, meaning at the oldest 16.
The differences are noticeable much earlier around 12/13. Why are you so keen for males to be included in female sporrs anyway? They are not being excluded whereas girls will and do miss out if they are allowed to compete with females? I can only summise you have no empathy for girls at all.

In.order to protects trans people playing sports surely there are 2 very big factors that will need to be over come first

Playing sports with a binder fir example would be dangerous as they can restrict breathing.

Bone density issues amd stunted growth from puberty blockers would surely also be a massive obstacle.

There's all this to over come before even thinking about what team they should play on.

A birth certificate should be adequate anyway. It's a good argument to not alter official documentation isn't it?

Girls sports need to be protected. No should have been enough . If it had we wouldn't even be here. Its girls sports not anyone who wants to play on them to validate their identity sports.

Making women and girls have to pick from chess or croquet just to avoid upsetting the male people is the most ridiculous idea I've ever heard.

So let's take the concerns of the OP at face value and agree that children will have to have 'genital inspections' to play within the correct sex group in sport...
(Which is a big leap)

I am not seeing the 'child abuse' involved here. There are lots of times in our lives when we have to submit to examinations that can feel uncomfortable. Mainly, of course, for medical reasons. I had bladder issues in my childhood and had a succession of medical professionals examining and performing procedures on me. No, it wasn't fun, but yes, it was necessary.

How we manage that in medical situations is to make it as dignified an experience as it possibly can be. People can ask to see an HCP of the same sex, there should be a parent or trusted adult with them. There would also be no need for it to be a long and drawn out situation. Like at birth - quick glance and noted. Nothing more.

And it would have to be conducted with the consent of the child and parent - and if they didn't give consent then there are other options.

None of that is akin to 'right. I don't believe you're a girl. Whip off your clothes and let me inspect you'

I'm not seeing a properly, respectfully conducted medical observation as child abuse, I'm afraid.

TWATW and belong in the male sports category or in a new sports category.

TMATM and should have to follow the same rules with regards to doping as other athletes, i.e. performance enhancing drugs are not allowed.

We have sex segregated sports for a reason.

Sport is segregated by sex for good reason - to ensure that a female athlete has the same shot at being the being the best female athlete in the world as a male does to be the best male athlete.

To have male athletes in female sports means female athletes are subject to a barrier which doesn't exist for men. The sexism of this shouldn't really need to be pointed out.

The TRA Own-Goal Sporting Award goes to.... drumroll.... ASugarr!!!

Thanks for letting in so much sunlight on this issue, OP.

Exactly but if we are going to be specific this is aimed at children, meaning at the oldest 16. The article is talking about both pubesent and pre-pubesent children.

Has the OP looked at under 16s recently. In most secondary schools in the first year you will find several boys around the 6 foot mark. By 16 most of the boys will be considerably taller and stronger than most of the girls. My own son was over 6ft before the age of 16.

My sons are required to show birth certificates to prove age in order to play for their football teams. Rightly so, as age confers physical advantages. This is not really any different. A birth certificate would normally be sufficient. It would only really be questioned if fraud was suspected.

I've lost count of how many "genital inspections" I've had in 45 years of being female. I find this absolute outrage about medical professionals looking at genitals to be very erasing of my lived experience as a woman.
I doubt very much any genital exams will be required,but if they were I'd assume the medical professionals involved would he totally respectful as they are for routine smear tests, post birth checks etc.

Exactly but if we are going to be specific this is aimed at children, meaning at the oldest 16. The article is talking about both pubesent and pre-pubesent children.

What's your point? Pubesent boys should not be playing sport against girls. Which is why age 10 is the age they generally separate into single sex sport.

TWATW and belong in the male sports category or in a new sports category.

TMATM and should have to follow the same rules with regards to doping as other athletes, i.e. performance enhancing drugs are not allowed.

It shouldn't take long before there's sufficient numbers to put together a dedicated Olympics, starting out with a few events.

I wonder if the sporting bodies should even now be consulting on what will be permissible as necessary medical interventions (hormones) and how to distinguish these from their performance-enhancing effects.

Entirely disagree with you OP - female sport is for females only.
I think that forcing girls to compete against biological males is child abuse of the girls.

@lifeissweet

So let's take the concerns of the OP at face value and agree that children will have to have 'genital inspections' to play within the correct sex group in sport... (Which is a big leap)

I am not seeing the 'child abuse' involved here. There are lots of times in our lives when we have to submit to examinations that can feel uncomfortable. Mainly, of course, for medical reasons. I had bladder issues in my childhood and had a succession of medical professionals examining and performing procedures on me. No, it wasn't fun, but yes, it was necessary.

How we manage that in medical situations is to make it as dignified an experience as it possibly can be. People can ask to see an HCP of the same sex, there should be a parent or trusted adult with them. There would also be no need for it to be a long and drawn out situation. Like at birth - quick glance and noted. Nothing more.

And it would have to be conducted with the consent of the child and parent - and if they didn't give consent then there are other options.

None of that is akin to 'right. I don't believe you're a girl. Whip off your clothes and let me inspect you'

I'm not seeing a properly, respectfully conducted medical observation as child abuse, I'm afraid.

So basically the thing is, if your child was asked to have a genital exam/inspection as they suspected they were transgender or the opposite gender, would you allow that to happen? Would that be okay? Because to me I really wouldn't be okay with that. Regardless if my child was cisgender or transgender.

I've lost count of how many "genital inspections" I've had in 45 years of being female. I find this absolute outrage about medical professionals looking at genitals to be very erasing of my lived experience as a woman

I know, all this faux outrage on behalf of girls. Whereas we know really that there's only one type of girl they are outraged for. Trans ideology / activism have forced girls into this situation. If they really were outraged on behalf of the girls, then let it be known that they caused this situation for them in the first place.

Yet in primary schools in the UK you tend to change infront of others

Only up until age 8 or so and then it is recognised that children need privacy and dignity too and they have separate changing rooms.

Ex-primary school teacher here 🙋‍♀️

Ok PE is rarely competitive in primary, but I’ll bite with sports day.

In EYFS/KS1 occasionally sports day races will be mixed sex.
From KS2 races are single sexed the boys are physically at an advantage even at this age.

In EYFS the biggest advantage is generally with the autumn born children as they can be up to a year ahead developmentally.

We spend a lot of time ‘practicing’ races, partly to teach/reinforce skills, but also to group children with those who are developmentally similar. Still we always end up with a group of autumn born boys who end up grouped together due to their superior ability. There maybe one strong autumn born girl amongst them.