Nordic model demand in Daily Mail

[LadyVymes]

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9482555/MARY-HARRINGTON-social-justice-warriors-backing-men-pay-sex.html

[quote PurgatoryOfPotholes]People who disagree with me are prudes, etc. Not that interesting.

It doesn't injure chefs to prepare food when they're not hungry.

[Extract]

"1) No job title is threateningly flung in the faces of women and girls all over the world the way “whore” and its many synonyms in many languages are used to commit verbal abuse.

2. Prostitution is often compared to coal mining. Harms to coal miners are accidents that safety equipment aims to reduce; harms to prostituted women are intentionally inflicted on them. Pornography commonly portraysharming womenas an attractive goal for consumers.

3. Prostitution is often compared to low-paid McJob work. Fast food employees don’t need specialized social services to “help” them quit the way prostitution survivors need protecting from pimps. When prostituted women escape they are more often in the same situation as domestic violence victims, fleeing from imminent harm with only the clothes on their back and the fear of being recaptured in their minds.

4. Prostitution is often compared to cleaning toilets. Being forced by economic necessity to clean toilets every day would be deeply unpleasant but it isn’t rape and it doesn’t leave people with PTSD, sexually transmitted diseases, or unwanted pregnancies. Anyone who has both cleaned a toilet and engaged in sex could explain the vast differences in these two activities.

5. Prostitution is not service work, it is bodily exploitation. The sex, race, and age of who provides a legitimate service doesn’t matter for cashiers, plumbers, accountants, cab drivers, etc. the way it matters to prostitute-using men who won’t accept sexual services from a man’s body when they want a woman’s body or from an elderly woman’s body when they want a young girl’s body.

6. There is no occupation that can be done while the worker is unconscious. Prostitutes are often drugged, passed out from unendurable pain, or have head trauma inflicted on them before and during being sexually assaulted.

7. Prostitution is not an entertainment media profession like modeling or acting. Actresses pretend to have sex, prostituted women are not pretending having sex and the harm to their bodies and minds is evidence of exploitation, not an occupation. There is no trafficking ring forcing teenage girls to perform Shakespeare for men’s leisure.

8. Basic work safety conditions are impossible to reconcile with prostitution. Laws aboutoccupational exposure(“reasonably anticipated skin, eye, mucous membrane, or parenteral contact with blood or other potentially infectious materials”) mandate latex gloves, eye goggles, face masks, and aprons to protect employees. Prostitution can never beOSHAcompliant."

www.feministcurrent.com/2018/12/17/prostitution-not-work-crib-sheet/[/quote]
I'm keeping that for future use too.

Excellent post Potholes.

Jenny - there's something rather entitled about you giving me a feminist reading list. I can't quite put my finger on what it is.

Radical Feminists still ally themselves with some very nasty people

I think that people who read statements like this these days must be rolling their eyes at what has become tired old trope.

The word ‘ally’ does so much work in these sentences.

I cannot believe that people are arguing for prostitution to be legal. And do not seem the accept any arguments that it damages women. I am Nordic Model all the way.

But maybe we have been having the wrong line of arguments for the whole?

I think that women in prostitution really are asexual. As such, forcing them to go against their convictions that they do not want sex is damaging.

As for the buyers, I think they should get off with each other. That would also save them money. And for those who say that there predominantly are male buyers, how do you know this? There may be some gender fluid ones. And we are constantly being told to disregard genital preferences. Why can’t the men keen on prostitutes do the same?

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

People who disagree with me are prudes, etc. Not that interesting.

I didn't say that people who disagree with me are prudes. Women like Sheila Jeffreys who live like nuns not having sex with anyone and who ally themselves with nuns and evangelicals are motivated by disgust and fear of basic human sexuality.

I misquoted Jeffreys earlier. I typed "It does not mean compulsory sexual activity with men" when it should have been "It does not mean compulsory sexual activity with women." That just emphasizes that Radical Feminist activists don't usually have sex with anyone.

If you say that you are disgusted by prostitution and pornography that's fine. What's unforgivable is when people invent statistics to try to change laws with little concern for the effects of what they are doing.

It doesn't injure chefs to prepare food when they're not hungry.

Most prostitutes are not injured by what they do. I know in your head you associate sex with aggression and death but there is no evidence that all prostitutes are harmed. Women are harmed by coercion, by drug addiction, by arrest, by eviction and being separated from their children. There are ways to help them but it's never to give the police more powers.

Many sex workers do make a living without penetration. Some professional Thai masseurs are willing to provide a basic sexual service to their clients, they use their hands to bring him to orgasm. A dominatrix often does not offer penetration. Some others don't do penetration, I know of one old woman who doesn't do it.

If you read the book Paid For by Rachel Moran she wrote that for the first couple of years she didn't do penetration. Then in 1993 there was a change in the law in Ireland which restricted the activities of prostitutes. After that she did penetration but only sporadically. She preferred to do just domination and did only that when she could. She never once had anal sex.

So to say that the job requires a person to allow penetration is not true. Some do, some don't. If it doesn't disgust them and they want to make enough money to set themselves up for life then they do it. Often they won't if they have a boyfriend. If you restrict the activities of sex workers by counterproductive laws then they often end up doing things that they previously avoided: that's something we should think about before blithely demanding a change in the law.

There are ways we can make prostitution safe. It is already safe in some areas, such as the walk ups of Soho. It is wrong to say that prostitution is inherently unsafe then block what women want to do to make themselves safe. Let them work together for safety without fear of arrest.

Let them work together for safety without fear of arrest.

Which could absolutely happen under the Nordic Model. Excellent.

I’m shuddering reading your posts, jenny. I suppose I’m meant to feel ashamed of being a prude or something? Actually, I’m imagining the reality for women in the world you describe.

I was just watching a YouTube video with some stats that highlight that men who buy womens bodies, punters, are eight times more likely to be rapists.

I’m imagining how safe I would feel in a line of work whose clientele were disproportionately rapists, where that work required me to be naked and vulnerable with them.

It’s not a rosy picture.

@Helleofabore

The word ‘ally’ does so much work in these sentences.

Jim Wells invented the statistic that 127 prostitutes have been murdered in the Nethelands since legalization. He has got into trouble for his views on abortion and homosexuality. He is an evangelical Christian, a creationist.

Rachel Moran goes on national radio and repeats the false statistic. Kat Banyard repeats it in her recent book. Julie Bindel quotes 'Mr Wells' in her recent book but steers clear of the statistic, probably because she knows it is false.

Ruhama invent the statistic that 38% of Irish prostitutes have attempted suicide. Rachel Moran repeats it in her book. You would think she would have checked it or the publishers. But they can't be arsed: why spoil a juicy statistic.

And they all campaigned for the Nordic model in Ireland north and south. The two official reports do not say that it has achieved any of its key objectives, just the opposite.

@HecatesCatsInFancyHats

Which could absolutely happen under the Nordic Model. Excellent.

So the two Romanian women in their 20s who were given 9 month sentences in Nordic model Ireland weren't really arrested? See my previous link to the nemspaper article. Other women have been arrested in both north and south Ireland, and in every Nordic model country. The Nordic model is a cruel and hypocritical system.

@Sophoclesthefox

I was just watching a YouTube video with some stats that highlight that men who buy womens bodies, punters, are eight times more likely to be rapists.

And which country is this? It wouldn't be surprising in America where men are criminalized for paying for sex.

[quote jennywhitehorses]@Sophoclesthefox

I was just watching a YouTube video with some stats that highlight that men who buy womens bodies, punters, are eight times more likely to be rapists.

And which country is this? It wouldn't be surprising in America where men are criminalized for paying for sex.[/quote]
That sounds surprisingly close to the feminist view that paying for sex is akin to rape, because consent can’t be bought. Well done, Jenny!

Decent men don’t buy sex. Decent men don’t see women’s bodies s disposable items for purchase.

[quote jennywhitehorses]@HecatesCatsInFancyHats

Which could absolutely happen under the Nordic Model. Excellent.

So the two Romanian women in their 20s who were given 9 month sentences in Nordic model Ireland weren't really arrested? See my previous link to the nemspaper article. Other women have been arrested in both north and south Ireland, and in every Nordic model country. The Nordic model is a cruel and hypocritical system.[/quote]
There have been very few arrests of women in Nordic Model countries and where there have it is complicated by immigration/trafficking issues. Legalising the sale of women is not the answer. Ironing out the issues in Ireland is the answer. In Norway where there was pressure to revoke the law the government changed their mind because it was proven to be working very effectively and reducing the amount of prostitution in the country. Criminalising the punters is the answer. Removing all laws pertaining to prostitution so that anyone can buy and sell women is not.

jennywhitehorses

And does sharing an opinion that a model is worthwhile exploring or that a piece of legislation is not progressing women mean that the motivation is shared as you imply?

I don't think so.

I find people to use that term 'ally' when really it is simply a moment of agreement from different points of view to be used by those who seek to shut down discussion.

If we turn it around, who agrees and benefits with your point of view? Are you an 'ally' to everyone who does? Everyone?

jennywhitehorses

Most prostitutes are not injured by what they do. I know in your head you associate sex with aggression and death but there is no evidence that all prostitutes are harmed.

😂 I hope you didn't strain any muscles in that reach.

I know the difference between having sex when you're aroused and sex when you don't. I am also aware of the difference between having dinner at your leisure when you're hungry and being force-fed.
It's really not that difficult to comprehend.

Extract
Wolf Heide is a gynaecologist/ obstetrician who helps women in prostitution. He does medical exams and provides care.This is from his statement given to the Deutscher Bundestag in a hearing preceding the new law.

His statement in brief: The overuse and abuse of the women’s sexual organs leads to inflammations, STIs and beyond STIs, and of course this situation makes them much more vulnerable to STIs, as the usual resilience other adult women have to STIs (or in fact any other disease) is damaged: Bruising, tearing, abrasions in/on those organs, means the slightest infection will lead to illness, and in addition, those in street
prostitution are out at all times in very little clothing, miniskirts, thin stockings, which again harms, and then their general life style damages any immune-system a normal healthy adult has. (Obviously this will not be helped by condoms, as the overuse, abrasions and exposure to damaging surroundings etc. will continue.)

He also says that these inflammations often lead to damage to the internal reproductive organs, e.g. the fallopian tubes, and this means that the women become infertile, i.e. they won’t be able to have children if they ever want them later, a strong denial of their reproductive rights, and of health. This is especially true as the women are in prostitution throughout these illnesses, inflammations etc., which means the abuse and causes continue while they should be healing. It subjects them to intense pain and exacerbates the illnesses, wounds, inflammations.

A medical journal found that especially younger women under 20, without any health insurance, in streetprostitution, with hardly any knowledge of German, had an increased risk of STIs. (Ärztezeitung Nr. 62 vom 01. 02.2016 Seite 4;this is about a study by the German Robert Koch Institut from 2011, based on almost 10000 medical exams by 29 municipial health offices. The Robert Koch Institut (RKI) is roughly comparable to the Institut Pasteur)The prostitutes he sees suffer from chronic lower abdominal pain due to inflammations and to mechanical trauma that are hard to treat medically. Due to the high rents they have to continue to serve clients even while suffering from unbearable pain. They also suffer from stomach inflammations. They show premature ageing, a symptom of persistent permanent stress. In addition to the injuries to be expected from the overuse of the sexual organs there are those inflicted by punters on purpose.They are often subjected to late abortions which also carries risks of damaging their health, and they often do these in their home countries as Germany only permits abortions in the first 12 weeks, and the medical costs are high. It is not clear who makes the decision about the abortions. In addition the STIs also increase risks of damages to the women or to the fetus. He cites late miscarriages or severe disabilitites due to Sypilis, or of early miscarriage and sceptic reactions due to gonorrhoea.

According to his statement he had to write several medical notes for a pregnant woman who wanted to exit prostitution but wasn’t accepted in a specific welfare (Hartz IV) measure. It took three court cases to finally declare that it is inacceptable for a pregnant woman to work in prostitution (i.e. to expect her to be there)(Aktenzeichen Landessozialgericht Stuttgart: L 3 AS 4449/15 ER-B und L 3 AS 4450/ 15 B.)


Women are back in prostitution 3 days after giving birth, even while suffering from the usual injuries left by vaginal birth. Bing back in prostitution, with 15 to 30 buyers a day can leave lasting damages up to lasting incontinence.Women often hide their pregnancies in order to be safe from pressures from their envionment, in order to be able to work during pregnancy, in order not to be pushed into the special market for pregnant women.

In his estimation 90% of all the prostitutes he sees do not have any health insurance, findings also seen by a study of the Robert Koch Institut from 2014 (Ärztezeitung Nr. 62 01.04.2016 Seite 4), the reasons for this are lack of language skills and the costs.
The abuses lead to a high consumption of drugs / psychotropic medication.

Source: banishea.wordpress.com/2016/11/20/data-on-women-in-prostitution-in-germany-numbers-health-working-conditions/

So to say that the job requires a person to allow penetration is not true.

Most prostitutes are not injured by what they do.

What % of prostitution is not involving coercion in any way in the UK? What % of prostitutes actually have a choice?

*"Let them work together for safety without fear of arrest.

Which could absolutely happen under the Nordic Model. Excellent."*

Except it doesn't. For whatever reason, countries that have introduced the Nordic model have made a point of ensuring sex workers are still committing a crime for working together. Women are still arrested for this except the media keeps this quiet and prints headlines like "people arrested in anti-trafficking raid!" to mislead people into thinking the arrests are related to trafficking (when in fact they are not).

The police will always use the wording "anti-trafficking raid" when they burst into a brothel and never "anti sex workers working together for safety raid", even though any arrests made tend to be made for the latter.

"What % of prostitution is not involving coercion in any way in the UK? What % of prostitutes actually have a choice?"

A 2009 investigation lasting 6 months involved all police forces raiding 822 brothels/flats/massage parlours (by surprise) all over Britain to find traffickers and victims. The result of that was they basically found squat- some police forces found noone to arrest at all, some women were charged with working together, some were charged for drugs or immigration offences.

guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/oct/20/government-trafficking-enquiry-fails

Do you think these young girls being "sex workers" to get themselves through uni will be adding this "work" on their CV's when they start applying for jobs? If not, why not?

2009 is a very long time ago. And we know that there are trafficked people working in different industries in the UK now.

I’d say anyone relying on this data would be mistaken or posting for an agenda that needs for trafficking to be denied.

@MargaritaPie

Except it doesn't. For whatever reason, countries that have introduced the Nordic model have made a point of ensuring sex workers are still committing a crime for working together. Women are still arrested for this except the media keeps this quiet and prints headlines like "people arrested in anti-trafficking raid!" to mislead people into thinking the arrests are related to trafficking (when in fact they are not).

Quite right, MargaritaPie. Did you know that the justice minister in Ireland, Frances Fitzgerald, doubled the penalties for 'brothel keeping' when the Nordic model was introduced? Also laws against soliciting/loitering were retained.

She was asked about it in parliament before the new law came in, so people knew about the problem but went ahead anyway.

Think about it. If you were justice minister and you wanted to get rid of prostitution, what would you say? We want the American model where both sex workers and their clients are arrested? Or the Nordic model, where you can pretend that you're shifting the burden of criminality from women on to men? That sounds a lot better doesn't it? But it's dishonest.

Mary Harrington is a great writer, just been reading some of her other stuff on unherd.com.

@Helleofabore

I’d say anyone relying on this data would be mistaken or posting for an agenda that needs for trafficking to be denied.

The obsession with trafficking started around 2000 with the George W Bush administration. Franklin Graham, the son of Billy Graham, was a kind of personal pastor to President Bush. He is a fundamentalist and influenced Bush to spend millions of dollars countering 'trafficking' around the world.

In 2007, police forces across Britain started a wide-scale investigation into sex trafficking. Called Pentameter Two it included brothel raids. It resulted in 5 convictions for trafficking. In operations Pentameter One and Two over 1300 locations were raided. 255 women were 'rescued'. 16 were deported, 36 returned home, 37 accepted victim support services and 166 disappeared.

Project Acumen was set up by ACPO. Of the 210 migrants interviewed none was kidnapped or held hostage. 202 of them knew they would be working as prostitutes when they came to Britain.

See the Nick Davies 2009 Guardian article Inquiry Fails to Find Single Trafficker Who Forced Anybody Into Prostitution and the Jerry Markon 2007 Washington Post article Human Trafficking Evokes Outrage, Little Evidence. There is another article by Nick Davies called Prostitution and trafficking - the anatomy of a moral panic.

202 of them knew they would be working as prostitutes when they came to Britain.

Lucky them

And again, people are posting figures over a decade old. Why? What are you keen to deny?

Do those posters not believe that trafficked workers in other industries also exist? Trafficking has been a significant issue in other countries, not just the UK over the past decade.

So, are you also saying those countries are lying?

It seems some people are very keen to downplay the risks and harms of prostitution.

Good thing, though, that the UK government is fully aware of the situation.

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/927111/FINAL-_2020_Modern_Slavery_Report_14-10-20.pdf

They also acknowledge just how hard it is to track this and make arrest. But at least they are NOT denying that human trafficking exists and that sexual exploitation is part of the issue.

There are also some ONS stats for 'Number of referrals to the National Referral Mechanism by exploitation type, UK, year ending December 2010 to year ending December 2018' for sexual exploitation was 1926.

Lower than expected yes, but the ONS preface their reports with "The hidden nature of modern slavery makes producing an accurate prevalence measure difficult."

Considering the very misleading information people are posting here, I guess it is quite clear to readers of the thread that if posters are denying that sex trafficking occurs, it is hardly likely that the posts stating 'no harm comes to prostitutes' etc, is also rather unreliable.