Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Nordic model demand in Daily Mail

263 replies

LadyVymes · 18/04/2021 00:22

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9482555/MARY-HARRINGTON-social-justice-warriors-backing-men-pay-sex.html

OP posts:
PurgatoryOfPotholes · 14/05/2021 15:23

At what point would the percentage of trafficked women become too big to ignore? Asking for me.

Recent posts have reminded me of this article, from October 20th, 2005.

In less elevated circles, such as the website Punternet, where one can imagine obscure versions of Wayne Rooney or Hugh Grant or Jeffrey Archer seeking helpful tips or information, men who buy sex submit their reports in much the same righteous, easily aggrieved tone as the Good Food Guide's amateur inspectors, gittishly rating prostitutes for warmth of welcome, interior decor, value for money and whether or not they would recommend the individual in question to future users.

Clearly, standards in the domestic sex trade are not always what they should be. "She's Polish but her English isn't brilliant. Only been with the agency a couple of days," notes a discerning consumer whose fee was collected by "an agent". Communication seems to be a common problem: "English not her strongest language, but her personality more than compensated," comments another customer. On the plus side, the eastern European monoglots seem to be younger than the home-grown product. "If she wore a school uniform, she would have looked 16," gloats one report, whose author guesses that the woman in question was actually around 19 years old. The same age, then, as one of the Lithuanian girls whose auction last year, at the Costa Coffee concession at Gatwick airport, was described in a report on a sex-trafficking case in yesterday's Daily Mirror.

Much, quite rightly, was made of the vileness of the swarthy human traffickers who had duped these innocent girls into coming to Britain. Sentencing them to 21 and 16 years respectively, the judge, Trevor Barber, this week told Tasim Axhami, a Serb, and Emiljan Beqirat, a Lithuanian, "You have no moral values, scruples or compassion. Neither of you has any place in this or any other normal society."

In practice, Axhami and Beqirat found a warm welcome in some parts of this society. The shamelessness of the Punternet correspondents indicates that they, at any rate, would be affronted by any suggestion that they are not supremely normal. And yet without men like them, there would be no market for the traffickers and the women brought here to be raped, sold and imprisoned. One of their victims, a 19-year-old from Moldavia, has described how she was raped and subsequently installed in a City flat with six others. Their clients were generally married, and able to pay the women's pimps at least £100 per visit. The girls received nothing. It was after she appealed to one of these clients, a man in his 50s who gave her £200, that the girl escaped. The client had thought she was there voluntarily.

For example, they might look around the massage parlour, or brothel, and, as well as awarding marks for neatness, wonder: are these girls obviously held captive? In the recent raid on Cuddles, the Birmingham massage parlour where 19 women were immured, police had to use battering rams to knock down locked internal doors, windows had been boarded up, and an electric fence stopped anyone trying to escape from the back of the building. What kind of person lives in a house like this?

In reality, it is probably the extreme powerlessness of these complaisant, identity-free foreign girls, who could never talk back even if they wanted to, that renders them such appealing members of a trade in which women are commodities. The indulgence extended to glossier participants in the lap-dancing end of the sex industry cannot account for the thousands of law-abiding British men for whom the abuse of a trafficked teenager constitutes a satisfying sexual encounter. But perhaps the two things are not wholly unrelated.

Continues www.theguardian.com/society/2005/oct/20/penal.comment

HecatesCatsInFancyHats · 14/05/2021 16:23

Considering the very misleading information people are posting here, I guess it is quite clear to readers of the thread that if posters are denying that sex trafficking occurs, it is hardly likely that the posts stating 'no harm comes to prostitutes' etc, is also rather unreliable.

Very much this.

Helleofabore · 14/05/2021 17:00

Considering the very misleading information people are posting here, I guess it is quite clear to readers of the thread that if posters are denying that sex trafficking occurs, it is hardly likely that the posts stating 'no harm comes to prostitutes' etc, is also rather unreliable.

Ooops That would be 'highly' unlikely not hardly likely.

HecatesCatsInFancyHats · 14/05/2021 17:21

My brain skipped over that because I knew exactly what you meant!

MargaritaPie · 14/05/2021 18:42

*"2009 is a very long time ago. And we know that there are trafficked people working in different industries in the UK now.

I’d say anyone relying on this data would be mistaken or posting for an agenda that needs for trafficking to be denied."*

It's a while ago now, but worth noting as it was a massive anti-trafficking operation, the biggest ever in Britain in fact. If trafficking was as big a problem as some sources (cough Daily Record) make it out to be then I would imagine they would have found thousands of traffickers and victims during such a large operation, but this just wasn't the case.

The article also says:
"There are more people trafficked for labour exploitation than there are for sexual exploitation. We need to redress the balance here. People just seem to grab figures from the air."

Trafficking for sexual reasons does of course exist but I think many sources may possibly be exaggerating the extent of it. Possibly because many sources also automatically assume any sex worker who is from another country to be "trafficked".

Helleofabore · 14/05/2021 18:54

If it wasn't an issue, why is there a multi-national effort to stop it.

And obviously the UK government is just wasting money on a non-event then. Way to continue to downplay a serious issue with out of date facts.

You are not convincing me and, I doubt, any other readers with this line.

HecatesCatsInFancyHats · 14/05/2021 19:09

There's been a huge increase in the trafficking of Romanian women for prostitution since 2009.

"Instead, the police investigation found that the brothel and the women inside were under the control of a criminal gang, which was also running at least three other premises where Romanian women were being exploited. It is estimated that just one of these brothels would have brought over £1m in profits every year."

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2020/nov/30/silent-victims-the-hidden-romanian-women-exploited-in-the-uk-sex-trade?CMP=ShareiOSAppp_Other

MargaritaPie · 14/05/2021 20:15

"If it wasn't an issue, why is there a multi-national effort to stop it."

Because of certain politicians and tabloids continually claiming it to be such a massive issue, which the public listen to/read and believe.

Quote from the article:
"Current and former ministers have claimed that thousands of women have been imported into the UK and forced to work as sex slaves, but most of these statements were either based on distortions of quoted sources or fabrications without any source at all."

"human traffickers who had duped these innocent girls into coming to Britain. Sentencing them to 21 and 16 years respectively,"

As seen from these given sentences, trafficking for sexual reasons is dealt with seriously in Britain despite the fact sex work isn't illegal here.

www.theguardian.com/global-development/2020/nov/30/silent-victims-the-hidden-romanian-women-exploited-in-the-uk-sex-trade

This article despite being about a trafficking case does contain the quote "The majority of UK sex work is done independently and consensually".

MargaritaPie · 14/05/2021 20:17

Slightly off-topic but you might be interested to know Germany has currently banned sex work because of covid concerns. Sex workers are in a difficult position with some choosing to continue illegally despite the ban because they need the money.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-europe-57029723

HecatesCatsInFancyHats · 14/05/2021 21:14

In a civilised society women's shouldn't have to sell their bodies to make money. Women are not commodities.

HecatesCatsInFancyHats · 14/05/2021 21:15

Women not women's

jennywhitehorses · 15/05/2021 12:28

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

Extract

Wolf Heide is a gynaecologist/ obstetrician who helps women in prostitution. He does medical exams and provides care. This is from his statement given to the Deutscher Bundestag in a hearing preceding the new law.

His statement in brief: The overuse and abuse of the women's sexual organs leads to inflammations, STIs and beyond STIs, and of course this situation makes them much more vulnerable to STIs

That's interesting because Dr Petra Boynton says the opposite about prostitutes in the UK. This is her writing in the Lancet.

The recent increase in sexually transmitted infections in the general population in the United Kingdom contrasts with a reduced prevalence in female sex workers. And the prevalence of HIV infection in sex workers, mainly associated with injecting drug use, remains low - between 0% and 3.5%. Sex workers have a responsible approach to managing the risk of sexually transmitted infections, with a high prevalence of condom use for commercial vaginal sex (98%).

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1352040/

Wolf Heide is a gynaecologist. He only sees women with medical problems. Dr Petra Boynton is a researcher. Her job is to find out about UK prostitutes in general, not just those who come to her with medical problems. Most prostitutes in the UK do not have 15 to 30 customers in one day. The only ones who do are the more popular ones in the Soho walk ups and even then it's not usually more than 20. I don't support the system in Germany, I support the system in New Zealand.

jennywhitehorses · 15/05/2021 12:37

Do not misrepresent my views. I have not said that trafficking does not exist. I have not said that no woman has ever been harmed in prostitution.

Trafficking exists in many areas of money-making. We don't usually call it trafficking in most areas unless coercion is involved. We do call it trafficking in sex work even if coercion is not involved.

I have ordered a book called 'The Truth about Modern Slavery' by Emily Kenway. She is an expert on the issue and I want to read what she has to say. The review says "It shows how anti-slavery action acts as a moral cloak, hiding the harms of the 'hostile environment' towards migrants, legitimising big brands' exploitation of the poorest workers and oppressing sex workers."

jennywhitehorses · 15/05/2021 12:40

@Helleofabore

I find people to use that term 'ally' when really it is simply a moment of agreement from different points of view to be used by those who seek to shut down discussion.

So you don't think that Amnesty International is an ally of pimps and traffickers? Perhaps you could tell Julie Bindel and the other Radical Feminists that.

When Communists agree with Fascists they show themselves not to be the progressives that they like to present themselves as. When Radical Feminists agree with religious bigots they show themselves not to be the progressives that they like to present themselves as.

What is this shared belief? Do you think that Jim Wells really believes that 127 prostitutes were murdered in the Netherlands since legalization? Do you think that Ruhama really believe that 38% of Irish prostitutes have attempted suicide? They attend the same conferences and agree to tell each other's lies.

The Christians want to stop people fornicating but they don't say that. The Radical Feminists believe that "all women's consent to be sexually used by men cannot be true consent under the existing conditions of gender inequality" (hence the celibacy) but they keep that quiet. They all pretend they care about the welfare of prostitutes.

If a man has been convicted of pimping and hasn't coerced anyone but has merely allowed sex workers to use his platform for advertizing I am happy to listen to him. I am happy to listen to anarchists if they have interesting information and not lies. I wouldn't be in the same room as Jim Wells.

jennywhitehorses · 15/05/2021 12:46

@Helleofabore

If it wasn't an issue, why is there a multi-national effort to stop it.

The State Department in the USA under the instruction of George W Bush under the influence of Franklin Graham threatened countries who did not comply with anti-trafficking measures. They did that by withholding aid, often to the poorest countries like Cambodia.

Britain decided to go along with what these puritans were telling them. When you think that all that money could have been used for drug rehab. That's the best way to help women.

HecatesCatsInFancyHats · 15/05/2021 18:48

Seriously, could you come up with something a bit more inventive than the "aligned with the far/religious right" slur. Anyone taking the time to read what the many intelligent women on this board have to say will know that their concerns for women in prostitution - that it is a profession most likely to attract poor women, who are at greater risk of violence, drug addiction and ill health as a result of their work - will know that the women who think it's wrong and that punters should be criminalised and not prostitutes are not religious bigots the like of which you find in the Bible Belt. Let's be a little more honest shall we? Prostitution is damaging to all women because it lowers the status of all women. It is a feminist position to take to see it in that way. It is not left wing to view women's bodies as commodities.

jennywhitehorses · 18/05/2021 13:03

@HecatesCatsInFancyHats

Seriously, could you come up with something a bit more inventive than the "aligned with the far/religious right" slur. Anyone taking the time to read what the many intelligent women on this board have to say will know that their concerns for women in prostitution - that it is a profession most likely to attract poor women, who are at greater risk of violence, drug addiction and ill health as a result of their work - will know that the women who think it's wrong and that punters should be criminalised and not prostitutes are not religious bigots the like of which you find in the Bible Belt. Let's be a little more honest shall we? Prostitution is damaging to all women because it lowers the status of all women. It is a feminist position to take to see it in that way. It is not left wing to view women's bodies as commodities.
I think it used to be true that it attracts mostly poor women but that is no longer true in countries like Britain. I'm not sure if it was ever true - think of the courtesans throughout history. Read what Dr Brooke Magnanti has to say about this in her book The Sex Myth - so many of them have degrees.

Women are at risk of violence when they are not allowed to work together. There are a lot of prostitutes in Soho, or at least there were before the pandemonium, and in the 'walk ups' there are always two women in a flat. Nobody has been murdered there since 1947. Radical Feminists stand in the way of sensible reform of the law to allow small groups of women to work together. You would think that anyone who believes in the Nordic Model would want to stop the arrest of women but they don't.

I know Nordic Model Now! say we can never make it safe but their arguments aren't convincing. Lots of prostitutes have been murdered recently in Nordic Model France. None in Sweden but then there weren't any before either. Not for more than a decade before the sex-buyer law. It doesn't seem to make any difference.

Most prostitutes are not drug addicts and do not go on to develop drug addiction. As for ill health, I can only refer you back to my quote of Dr Petra Boynton.

You have to ask yourself the question why some people are so ready to believe the false statistics of people like Jim Wells and Ruhama. It enrages me when someone sees a stat they like and they retweet it without checking it. They are disgusted by the idea of prostitution and that leads them to just believe the most ridiculous things. It backs up their emotions. Radical Feminists are not religious bigots but they share the false statistics of religious bigots. Read what I said earlier about Kat Banyard and Julie Bindel quoting 'Mr Wells' in recent books.

jennywhitehorses · 18/05/2021 13:08

I have read the first 3 chapters of 'The Truth About Modern Slavery' by Emily Kenway. Chapter 3 is about prostitution and trafficking, and part of it is her assessment of the Nordic Model. This is the final paragraph of her assessment.

"In sum, this legislative model provides no concrete evidence of combating trafficking but does provide conclusive evidence of creating vulnerabilities which may lead, at best, to more poverty, more abuse, riskier working conditions and, at worst, to severe exploitation itself."

The final paragraph of chapter 3 says this

"The 'radical feminists' and religious interests that promote models which harm women want us to think we have to take a side; against sex work entirely and therefore exploitation, or for it entirely and therefore comfortable with exploitation. This in totally untrue. In fact, we can be against exploitation and support those in sex work, recognising sex work as work and recognising trafficking for sexual exploitation as abhorrent and wrong."

Emily Kenway is a writer and activist. As a former advisor to the UK's first Anti-Slavery Commissioner she was at the heart of modern slavery action. She has written for a variety of publications including the Guardian and TLS.

This book will have a place on my bookshelf alongside 'Revolting Prostitutes: The Fight for Sex Workers' Rights' by Molly Smith and Juno Mac and 'The Sex Myth: Why Everything We’re Told is Wrong' by Dr Brooke Magnanti as essential reference works on this subject. All of them women!

jennywhitehorses · 20/05/2021 13:50

Page 9 of this thread started with Helleofabore talking about referrals to the National Referral Mechanism. Then PurgatoryOfPotholes quoting from a 15 year old newspaper article by Catherine Bennett in the Guardian.

Emily Kenway in her 2021 book The Truth About Modern Slavery has something to say about both of these things. Catherine Bennett wrote about the police raid on the 'Cuddles' brothel (quoted by PurgatoryOfPotholes):-

"In the recent raid on Cuddles, the Birmingham massage parlour where 19 women were immured, police had to use battering rams to knock down locked internal doors, windows had been boarded up, and an electric fence stopped anyone trying to escape from the back of the building. What kind of person lives in a house like this?"

This is Emily Kenway's take on the same event:-

"The 2005 raid on Cuddles 'massage parlour' in the West Midlands is regarded by sex worker activists and academics as pivotal, marking the start of a distortion in media coverage regarding sex work and a shift from tolerant to interventionist policing, all legitimised under the banner of anti-trafficking. Women found inside the brothel were marched out in front of the media, their faces exposed in the press in what has been likened to an American 'perp-walk', despite the fact that they were supposedly victims."

6 of the 19 women taken away by the police 'were detained under immigration powers and scheduled for deportation'. Catherine Bennett doesn't mention anything about deportations though.

There were other raids, for example in Redbridge in London. The media stated 'police rescue 15 women from pop-up brothels during Redbridge raids'. Emily made Freedom of Information requests and found that none of these 15 women had been referred to the National Referral Mechanism (NRM). This means the women did not consider themselves victims of trafficking. What's more, no Duty to Notify submissions were made. This means that the police did not consider them to be possible victims of trafficking.

So the women in Birmingham and Redbridge were not being rescued by the police. The police and the state have lied. I am confident that Catherine Bennett has said things in her article which are not true. I don't believe that 'an electric fence stopped anyone trying to escape from the back of the building'. These women were not prisoners in brothels and did not require rescue. Instead of being rescued many will have been detained for deportation or prosecution for brothel keeping. Not rescued from imprisonment but imprisoned.

HecatesCatsInFancyHats · 20/05/2021 20:02

Jenny you seem really invested in the decriminalisation of prostitution. Are you involved in the sex trade? Or do you use prostitutes?

MargaritaPie · 21/05/2021 21:09

you seem really invested in the decriminalisation of prostitution. Are you involved in the sex trade? Or do you use prostitutes?

decrimnow.org.uk/open-letter-on-the-nordic-model/

The Decrim Now letter which opposes the Nordic Model has about 250 and counting signatures from individuals and organisations(including large well-established orgs relating to health and human rights). Do you think everyone who signed that letter "uses prostitutes"? Some of the signatures are from groups made up of prostitutes themselves.

HecatesCatsInFancyHats · 21/05/2021 22:28

The likes of Amnesty supporting the decriminalisation of punters and pimps is neither surprising, nor of merit, since they have long squandered their moral authority. Prostitution is harmful to women and girls. Any move that removes sanctions from pimps and punters is a step towards more poor, vulnerable women being lured into a trade where they are at risk of violence and ill health.

"My second serious boyfriend... as well as being physically abusive, he was also sexually abusive. He signed me up to an escorting website and forced me to have sex with men for money, money that he would keep. If I said no, I got beaten. Eventually, he signed me up to a brothel. Where I would have sex with over 20 men in a night and he would pocket every single penny I made!"

nordicmodelnow.org/2021/05/16/we-do-not-want-to-be-sex-workers-its-not-fun-and-its-so-damaging/


"I live with the trauma of being in the sex trade from 16-25 years old but also with the fact that I involved other women"

nordicmodelnow.org/2021/05/08/i-live-with-the-trauma-of-being-in-the-sex-trade-from-16-25-years-old-but-also-with-the-fact-that-i-involved-other-women/


"What’s wrong with the open letter on Decriminalisation?"

"The open letter cited support for full decriminalisation from Amnesty Internationall and the World Health Organisation (WHO)) without mentioning that these organisations were advised by a pimp who has since been sentenced to 15 years in prisonn for sex trafficking, that their research is generally of very poor qualityy, and that their position has been robustly critiquedd_."

nordicmodelnow.org/2021/04/15/response-to-the-decrimnow-open-letter-opposing-the-nordic-model/

MargaritaPie · 21/05/2021 23:04

The Nordic Model does not decriminalise sex workers, one of the reasons it is under a lot of opposition. Decriminalisation does.

"My second serious boyfriend... as well as being physically abusive, he was also sexually abusive. He signed me up to an escorting website and forced me to have sex with men for money, money that he would keep. If I said no, I got beaten. Eventually, he signed me up to a brothel. Where I would have sex with over 20 men in a night and he would pocket every single penny I made!"

A tonne of crimes here, which there are existing laws for- domestic abuse, sexual harassment, sex trafficking, assault, theft.

"they attempted to have unprotected sex with me"

Pretty sure this would be attempted rape under British law.

Yes that's a very horrific story, but there are already laws in place for these crimes and I don't see how introducing the Nordic Model would help prevent any of these. If a violent man isn't deterred from laws against rape and assault I find it difficult to understand how it would deter him from a law against paying for sex (which in Sweden at least, is almost impossible to get a conviction for).

www.hivlawandpolicy.org/sites/default/files/FinalReport-Risks%2CRights%26Health-EN.pdf

A UN commission report 13 years after the Nordic Model was introduced in Sweden reveals that the sex-trade remains "at pre-law levels", the Swedish State Criminal Dept. warns "the sex trade may be more violent" and only 2 client convictions were made.

And 20 men a night? How is that even possible? I'm not doubting the story but it does sound a lot and I can't imagine a sex worker getting 20 bookings for a day even if she tried to.

HecatesCatsInFancyHats · 22/05/2021 08:50

I have said previously that the Nordic Model is the least worst option because it doesn't give the green light to traffickers, pimps and punters to view prostitution - the sale of women's bodies - as just another trade. All women suffer as a result of the objectification and commodification of women that is involved in the sex trade.

Read these vile comments from punter.net and tell me that these men then look at other women who aren't prostitutes with respect, they're describing the object they bought:

‘I travelled to see Sinead. Who wouldn’t? Size 6, 18 years old!!!’

‘Her body isn’t as firm and tight and trim as it should be for a 22 yr old, no chance, more like 32.’

‘This lady has reached her sell-by date.’ [Written by ‘Granddad’.]

‘Over [size 12] and I would feel like I was wrestling with a sumo.’

‘Not fat ones…would feel cheated to pay for one.’

‘Describes herself as…size 14.. she must be a size 18.. All I wanted to do was get out as quick as possible.’

‘She was late, and two dress sizes too big.’

‘19 yrs old blonde…needs to lose a little flab around the midriff.’

‘Nice girl but too chubby I’m afraid.’

‘Looked older and fatter (size 14 in my opinion compared to the size 8 advertised). This was plain deception and therefore not only will I never see Somaya again.’

‘The liars get away with it because the industry is unregulated. It is not like going into a shop where the consumer has rights.’

https://nordicmodelnow.org/myths-about-prostitution/myth-punters-care-about-the-women-they-buy/

MargaritaPie · 22/05/2021 12:55

Trafficking is also illegal under decriminalisation. Pimping is currently illegal in all parts of Britain and as shown in Sweden enforcing the law against paying for sex part of the Nordic Model is basically impossible and hasn't been shown to reduce the sex trade at all. Any comment on that?

Under decrim, sex workers aren't criminalised for working together unlike the Nordic Model.