Nordic model demand in Daily Mail

[LadyVymes]

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9482555/MARY-HARRINGTON-social-justice-warriors-backing-men-pay-sex.html

Thanks for posting. My Conservative MP is pretty good so I’ll write to him about this.

Great article, shame it's in the daily mail.
I did not realise what a high % of prostitutes come from romania those poor women

I think it's great it's in the Mail, really, Quentin. Huge audience. Gets the issues out there. The fact that papers like the Guardian wouldn't touch this type of article is to their shame.

I would encourage everyone to listen to the BBC Who Killed Emma? podcast to hear some stories from the frontline of this terrible industry.

I have never viewed women who enter prostitution as having had a totally free choice, other than a minuscule percentage. If it is not trafficking then it is economic coercion of sorts, given the poverty and low pay that exists in this country.

I'm not sure what the solution is to eradicating prostitution, or even if there is one, but decriminalisation as per Germany has not worked, and the Nordic model would not given it opens women to threats or actual violence if they report a man who uses prostitutes. More outreach work to support prostitutes and enable them to leave the work, and anything to stop websites which review prostitutes such as the one Harriet Harman campaigns against, seem two steps that can be taken.

@Peak2021 Why does the Nordic Model “open women to threats or actual violence if they report a man who uses prostitutes” exactly? Is there evidence of that being a significant issue from other places where the NM has been implemented? Currently in the UK lots of acts around prostitution are illegal even if the act itself isn’t, like kerb crawling and pimping, so is reporting these illegal activities a key aspect of putting women at threat of violence currently? I’m keen to understand anything I might be missing.

"This article reviews the key research that has been undertaken on the results of the Nordic Modell_ approach to prostitution in the countries in which it has been implemented, and provides a summary of the findings.
All of the studies show evidence of a significant reduction in men’s demand for prostitution. Although accurate estimates of the size of the population engaged in prostitution are difficult, the evidence suggests a reduction in the numbers involved over the medium and long term. Where the sex purchase ban is enforced, the sex trade becomes less viable and this discourages sex trafficking and pimping. One researcher went as far as to suggest that the sex purchase ban might be more effective in combating pimps and sex traffickers than laws that target them directly.
While there is no clear evidence that the police are violent towards those engaged in prostitution, they do tend to target undocumented migrants and report them to the immigration authorities for potential deportation. Clearly this is unacceptable and states need to provide better support and assistance to foreign nationals who have been used and abused in the sex trade within their territory.
All the studies indicate a very high rate of violence towards the people in prostitution, but there is no definitive evidence of any actual increase due to the sex purchase ban. Similarly claims that the sex purchase ban has driven prostitution underground and made it more dangerous are not supported by the research. Rather the evidence underlines the fact that prostitution is always dangerous.

nordicmodelnow.org/2019/12/22/has-the-nordic-model-worked-what-does-the-research-say/

@ArabellaScott

I think it's great it's in the Mail, really, Quentin. Huge audience. Gets the issues out there. The fact that papers like the Guardian wouldn't touch this type of article is to their shame.

Totally agree. Aren’t the DM readership by and large those who are most likely to vote effectively? The Guardian readers can all pointlessly vote Labour and keep their toxic views on women and potential legislation well away from actual power. Right now, like it or not, Boris Johnson and the conservatives have a huge political lead- and if they want to keep it then they need to listen to what people want. If the DM readership reflect a large majority of that electorate then these articles are very helpful. What’s the point of it being in TG these days?

@QuentinBunbury

Great article, shame it's in the daily mail. I did not realise what a high % of prostitutes come from romania those poor women

It wasn't a statistic I was aware of but sadly it doesn't surprise me at all.

and the Nordic model would not given it opens women to threats or actual violence if they report a man who uses prostitutes.

Can you be more specific about what you mean here.

I think you are right that there is no perfect legal/social solution, and even the best approach may have downsides. The best approach may not be the same in every place either, a country with a strong police force and social welfare may be able to implement models that won't work where there is little social welfare provision, or policing is inadequate. Those aren't necessarily simple problems to solve.

But in most western countries I think the Nordic model seems to be the most successful approach so far.

I'm not surprised this is a good article, BTW - Mary Harrington is a really good writer.

Oh, and the Daily Mail is the best place for the story. A middle-market publication with a huge readership (particularly online), plenty of whom are women.

From Yes, Minister (a comedy which was more of a documentary)
Don't tell me about the press. I know exactly who reads the papers:
- The Daily Mirror is read by people who think they run the country;
- The Guardian is read by people who think they ought to run the country;
- The Times is read by the people who actually do run the country;
- The Daily Mail is read by the wives of the people who run the country;
- The Financial Times is read by people who own the country;
- The Morning Star is read by people who think the country ought to be run by another country;
- and The Daily Telegraph is read by people who think it is.

Thanks @altforvarmt - isn't there a district in a northern English town, maybe Leeds, where it's been "decriminalised" with shocking results? Where is that do you know?

Prostitution in Germany - be warned, it's stomach-turning and enraging.

fightthenewdrug.org/germanys-legalized-prostitution-industry-looks-like-a-real-life-horror-movie/

@DdraigGoch

Oh, and the Daily Mail is the best place for the story. A middle-market publication with a huge readership (particularly online), plenty of whom are women.

From Yes, Minister (a comedy which was more of a documentary)
Don't tell me about the press. I know exactly who reads the papers:
- The Daily Mirror is read by people who think they run the country;
- The Guardian is read by people who think they ought to run the country;
- The Times is read by the people who actually do run the country;
- The Daily Mail is read by the wives of the people who run the country;
- The Financial Times is read by people who own the country;
- The Morning Star is read by people who think the country ought to be run by another country;
- and The Daily Telegraph is read by people who think it is.

That's still largely true!

It's an excellent article.

Thanks @altforvarmt - isn't there a district in a northern English town, maybe Leeds, where it's been "decriminalised" with shocking results? Where is that do you know?

Do you mean Holbeck in Leeds? This is discussed at length in the article.

Excellent article & delighted it’s somewhere with such a large readership

“Sisters Uncut – are sticking up for the punters who pay to rape trafficked women.” My surprised face was not utilised

I have never viewed women who enter prostitution as having had a totally free choice, other than a minuscule percentage. If it is not trafficking then it is economic coercion of sorts, given the poverty and low pay that exists in this country.

I've said this before and I will say it again, I'm sure. If you removed from prostitution any woman who was addicted, poor, sexually abused as a child, trafficked, pimped or started under 18, there would be next to no women in prostitution. Leaving the tiny remainder to charge a thousand pounds for a blow job and refuse any job they didn't want.

The business relies on addicted, sex crime survivors and trafficked women. That is its core. I'm sure they can dreg up a woman who isn't in this position to speak about choice. But I can find 20 in 10 minutes who are coerced.

That link Embarrassing - horror movie is right. **

Good on the DM for publishing this. Like others, every young woman I've worked with who got caught up in prostitution was vulnerable, poor, from an abusive background and involved with drugs.
The denial of this is shameful.

What a great article, big fan of Mary Harrington.
Is there a list anywhere of all the organisations that have opposed this bill? I'd like to make sure I never give them a cent.

[quote EmbarrassingAdmissions]Prostitution in Germany - be warned, it's stomach-turning and enraging.

fightthenewdrug.org/germanys-legalized-prostitution-industry-looks-like-a-real-life-horror-movie/[/quote]
Thank you for sharing. That was horrific, a tough read which demonstrates how women have become just another product for sale to be used in many awful ways at the whim of men. It undermines many of the arguments made by the pro-decriminalisation lobby.

"when the Prostitution Act came into effect in 2002, it made it possible for prostituted people to become regular employees, subject to taxation and access to social benefits. Yet only 44 out of an estimated 400,000-1,000,000 prostituted people have chosen to register as prostitutes in order to access said benefits."

"Organized crime groups like the Hells Angels, Mongols, Bandidos, United Tribuns, etc. control prostitution and red light districts in various German cities. Hamburg and Frankfurt, for example, are in the hands of the Hells Angels, whereas the United Tribuns control prostitution in Stuttgart and Villingen-Schwenningen. Despite that reality, popular discourse around legalization tends to focus on women’s “free choice” instead of the heavy involvement of organized crime in the industry."

“Flat-rate brothels” offer all-inclusive deals similar to all-you-can-eat buffets.” In some cases, snacks and drinks are included in the deal. A flat-rate brothel chain made headlines when, on its opening day in 2009, 1,700 men lined up to get in. The long lineups outside women’s rooms lasted until closing time when many of the women collapsed from exhaustion, pain, injuries, and infections. It was shut down a year later for human trafficking."

"Flat-rate brothels are very common in Germany, as well as “tabuslos,” meaning “no taboos.” In practice, this translates to “everything without any protection.” As a result, STDs are on the rise in Germany (HIV rates have gone up after several years of stagnation), and it’s common for married men to infect their wives."

"They can now even order women the way one would order a pizza thanks to a mobile app produced last year."

"In 2010, this channel aired a program about a brothel which caters to pedophile sexual fantasies. Women that look and dress like minors are available in rooms called “The Princess Room” or “The Classroom.” A video on YouTube shows the fifth anniversary of this brothel, attended by many German celebrities."

There's so much in there that is shocking it's hard to know what to pick and choose, but women's injuries being used in promotional material to demonstrate what a
great time was had by punters is one of the stand out details. Utterly depressing that organisations like Amnesty backs decriminalisation- it seems human rights don't extend to women.

Thought of this thread when reading this tonight:

Manhattan is moving to decriminalise sex work, sort of... (brought to you by the pro sex work dude bros at Vice)

www.vice.com/en/article/akgz9e/manhattan-is-moving-to-decriminalize-sex-work-kind-of

@ArabellaScott

I think it's great it's in the Mail, really, Quentin. Huge audience. Gets the issues out there. The fact that papers like the Guardian wouldn't touch this type of article is to their shame.

Exactly. People must get past these ‘purity politics’, and whether something is from a Good source or a Bad source. When it comes to women’s rights, the DM is putting the Good sources to absolute shame

"But not so the 150 prominent organisations, academics and activists, including Stonewall and Amnesty International, which have signed an open letter opposing the Sexual Exploitation Bill."

Why on earth are Stonewall involved with this? What the fuck has a Sexual Exploitation Bill - and the rape of vulnerable young women - got to do with them?! They should fuck right off.