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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Nordic model demand in Daily Mail

263 replies

LadyVymes · 18/04/2021 00:22

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9482555/MARY-HARRINGTON-social-justice-warriors-backing-men-pay-sex.html

OP posts:
MargaritaPie · 30/04/2021 23:14

Of course arrests act as deterrents though don't they.

Screenshot from above link. All it says is that street-based sex work has halved whilst the sex trade remains at pre-law levels.

Given there were only 2 convictions for buying sex in the first 13 years and that sex workers are unwilling to testify against their clients (which is needed for a client conviction), I would imagine word would spread that the buying-sex part of the Nordic Model laws is barely enforceable and nothing to worry about.

Seems ironic that the Nordic Model has resulted in way more convictions of prostitutes than clients.

Nordic model demand in Daily Mail
HecatesCatsInFancyHats · 01/05/2021 10:31

Seems ironic that the Nordic Model has resulted in way more convictions of prostitutes than clients.

This is not true.

jennywhitehorses · 01/05/2021 10:32

You've got a dame in England and a cop in Sweden, both desperate to prove that the Nordic model works. They come up with different statistics, neither of which can be found in any research. One wants us to believe that the number of prostitutes in Denmark is ten times higher than in Sweden. The other wants us to believe that the number of prostitutes in Sweden is 1,000.

One of the reasons they want to show it is working is because they can influence public opinion. If you told people that the war against drugs is working (it isn't) then millions of people will say "Well, I didn't think it would work but if it does then I'll support it". Same with the Nordic model. According to the surveys though it's not the Nordic model they support - or at least not the Nordic model as promoted - it's the American model: Swedish people want prostitutes to be punished as well as punters. Not very progressive.

So let's listen to the experts. This comes from the Skarhed report:-

In Sweden, the total number of persons in prostitution in the 1980s and 1990s was presumed to be between 2,000 and 3,000 per year. Subsequently, more precise studies of prostitution’s overall scope have not been carried out (see section 4.3.11). Even if arriving at an estimate of the scope of all forms of prostitution in Sweden seems very problematic, there is no support for the hypothesis that prostitution has increased to the same degree as it has in Norway and Denmark.

What it's saying is that they have no idea how many prostitutes there are in Sweden. They think it might have increased in Sweden, but it probably hasn't increased as much in Sweden as in Norway and Denmark. That's what the expert says, Chancellor of Justice Anna Skarhed, completely different from what the English dame and the Swedish cop say.
ec.europa.eu/anti-trafficking/sites/antitrafficking/files/the_ban_against_the_purchase_of_sexual_services._an_evaluation_1999-2008_1.pdf

HecatesCatsInFancyHats · 01/05/2021 10:43

Why do you want decriminalisation Jenny?

HecatesCatsInFancyHats · 01/05/2021 10:44

As a woman (I'm assuming you are a woman) wouldn't you want to send a clear message that prostitution of women's bodies is not socially acceptable?

HecatesCatsInFancyHats · 01/05/2021 10:45

And that in fact your main concern is for women and not punters...

jennywhitehorses · 01/05/2021 10:48

Seems ironic that the Nordic Model has resulted in way more convictions of prostitutes than clients.

This is not true.

It's true in Nordic model Ireland.

"To date, there have been a total of four outcomes of criminal proceedings against buyers (three convictions and one where the Probation of Offenders Act was applied)."

The two Romanian women I referred to earlier were only the most high profile of women arrested for working together for safety since the Nordic model came in. I have no idea of the total figure, I can't find it in Dr Geoffrey Shannon's report.

jennywhitehorses · 01/05/2021 10:53

@HecatesCatsInFancyHats

Why do you want decriminalisation Jenny?

I want decriminalisation because I don't want women who work together for safety to be arrested. Arrests happen in Nordic model countries, in Britain, and in countries like Germany too (I guess). It doesn't happen in New Zealand.

HecatesCatsInFancyHats · 01/05/2021 10:58

They aren't. The implementation may not be as effective in Ireland, but it isn't the case that the Nordic Model means prostitutes getting arrested. I take it from your response that you are a man Jenny.

jennywhitehorses · 01/05/2021 14:28

@HecatesCatsInFancyHats

Are you saying you don't believe that prostitutes get arrested in Nordic model countries?

I don't understand how you can think that if I don't want women to be arrested, imprisoned, deported and evicted then that must mean that I am a man.

The fact that I am willing to spend time looking at the research because I don't believe what politicians say in newspaper articles shows that I have more concern for women than most of the people who have contributed to this thread.

HecatesCatsInFancyHats · 01/05/2021 15:17

"Some people argue that the Nordic Model does not fully decriminalise prostituted women in Sweden, because the police pursue them for sharing flats under laws prohibiting procuring. This article, based on information from legal scholar, Gunilla S. Ekberg,[1] explains why this line of argument is erroneous.
The overarching aim of the prostitution law in Sweden is to discourage all forms of prostitution-related activities, while not pursuing individuals who are prostituted.
Procuring is an offence under the Swedish Penal Code, and applies to all prostitution-related activities, such as brothels and ‘outcall’ services. The offence is defined in Chapter 6: Sexual crimes, section 12, of the Swedish Penal Code:
A person who promotes or improperly financially exploits the casual sexual relations for payment of another person shall be sentenced for procuring to imprisonment for at most four years.
A person who, holding the right to the use of premises, grants the right to use them to another in the knowledge that the premises are wholly or to a substantial extent used for casual sexual relations for payment and omits to do what can reasonably be expected to terminate the granted right, he or she shall, if the activity continues or is resumed at the premises, be considered to have promoted the activity and shall be sentenced pursuant to the first paragraph.
If the crime referred to in the first or second paragraphs is considered gross, the person shall be convicted of gross procuring and sentenced to imprisonment of at least two and at most eight years.
When assessing whether the crime is gross, special consideration shall be given to whether the crime involved an activity, which was pursued on a larger scale, resulted in significant gains, or involved ruthless exploitation of another. (Law 2005:90)
The second paragraph (in italics) has been used in combination with other legal interventions to close down apartments that have been let or sub-let to criminal gangs, and where women have been exploited in prostitution. It is therefore an important tool in the fight against human trafficking for sexual purposes.
It does make it illegal for two prostituted women to operate from the same premises, because the owners, if they are aware, would be committing a crime. However, this needs to be understood within the context that prostituted persons are not pursued.
If the police receive information that two women are active in prostitution in an apartment that belongs to one of them, or to someone else, the primary rental contract holder / owner of the apartment building is approached with information about the procuring offence and requested to ensure that the apartment is no longer used for these purposes.
Provided none of the prostituted persons are under 18, the police would only proceed with an investigation into procuring after informing the primary contract holder/ owner about the law and giving her or him time to cease the activity. However, in practice, the Swedish police do not actively pursue these kind of cases. The Swedish national police authorities, upon contact, note that they are not aware of anyone engaged in prostitution losing their rental contract in this way.
The argument that under the Nordic Model, prostituted women are prosecuted for sharing premises therefore does not stand up to scrutiny – at least not in Sweden.
Every country that has implemented the Nordic Model has done so in a slightly different way, and how the legislation and policies are drafted and implemented vary.
The Nordic Model involves a profound paradigm shift that challenges men’s historic entitlement to sexual access to women and girls and many people, particularly men, resist the changes involved. As men retain disproportionate power within most of the public institutions (police, public prosecutions, legal system, treasury, etc.) even in countries that have passed Nordic Model-based legislation, there are many opportunities for the spirit and implementation of the approach to be sabotaged – on a national, regional and local level.
For example, police might simply fail to arrest punters, as happened in the first year of operation in Northern Irelandd_, or they might use other legislation to pursue prostituted women, or authorities may fail to provide funding for exiting services, public information programmes, and training for the police and public officials. These factors need to be taken into consideration in any evaluation of the approach."

https://nordicmodelnow.org/myths-about-prostitution/myth-police-prosecute-prostituted-women-for-sharing-flats-in-sweden/

jennywhitehorses · 04/05/2021 12:40

I would like to ask Simon Haggstrom a few questions. He is the officer in the prostitution unit of Stockholm police boasting that he has arrested 700 men. This is in the Guardian article that HecatesCatsInFancyHats referred us to. Prostitution: why Swedes believe they got it right

  1. How many of these 700 men have been convicted? (probably 0)
  2. How many women have you arrested for brothel-keeping?
  3. How many women have you got evicted?
  4. Why did you say that there were 2,500 prostitutes in Sweden in 1998?
  5. Why did you say that there are now 1,000 prostitutes in Sweden when there is no research saying that?
  6. Why are you such a liar?
jennywhitehorses · 04/05/2021 12:56

@HecatesCatsInFancyHats

However, in practice, the Swedish police do not actively pursue these kind of cases. The Swedish national police authorities, upon contact, note that they are not aware of anyone engaged in prostitution losing their rental contract in this way.

I do not believe the Swedish national police authorities. It happens all the time. They are very cagey about the information they give out, I didn't know that there were only two successful prosecutions and no imprisonments for sex buyers until I read this thread. They kept that quite.

Just because someone at Nordic Model Now! talked to someone on the phone at public relations for the Swedish police means nothing. Of course he or she can say 'they are not aware'.

Also, we are talking about 2 different things. Two or more prostitutes working together for safety can be prosecuted under pimping laws, as in Britain. They all get arrested even though they all sell sex.

Then, as admitted in the Nordic Model Now! extract, if the police can identify a prostitute they will approach her landlord and threaten him or her with prosecution if he or she does not evict.

Lisz · 04/05/2021 14:10

Listen To Sex Workers
Listen To Sex Workers
Listen To Sex Workers

Ta.

HecatesCatsInFancyHats · 04/05/2021 15:49

"Agnete Strøm suggests Amnesty chose Norway because prominent Norwegian Amnesty members openly opposed the Nordic Model, and in 2013 the incoming Norwegian government made it a manifesto promise to repeal the Nordic Model law. Amnesty wasn’t to know then that the incoming government would in fact abandon these plans [to repeal the Nordic Model law] when they realised how well the law was working in practice."

https://nordicmodelnow.org/myths-about-prostitution/myth-amnestys-research-in-norway-has-proved-the-nordic-model-is-harmful-to-sex-workers/

PuttingOnTheKitsch · 04/05/2021 20:38

@Lisz

Listen To Sex Workers Listen To Sex Workers Listen To Sex Workers

Ta.

  1. That kind of mantra reciting may work on certain corners of twitter. but not here.

  2. Pimps call themselves sex workers. Should we listen to them? The sex industry is a multi-million-pound global industry and yet we are supposed to believe that work to de-stigmatise purchasing sex (aka increase the consumer market and therefore profits) is entirely led by grass-root workers? Unlikely.

  3. Furthermore, if sex work is just like any other job, then everyone gets to have a say, just like any other job. When people talk about police brutality, would you be happy if shills filled up the comments saying "Listen to police officers"? I doubt it hugely.

MargaritaPie · 04/05/2021 21:50

In this context, "sex workers" is used to refer to adult men and women who sell sexual services.

GNCQ · 04/05/2021 22:33

@HecatesCatsInFancyHats

Seems ironic that the Nordic Model has resulted in way more convictions of prostitutes than clients.

This is not true.

It's so completely untrue it needs repeating
HecatesCatsInFancyHats · 04/05/2021 23:17

The sex industry is a multi-million-pound global industry and yet we are supposed to believe that work to de-stigmatise purchasing sex (aka increase the consumer market and therefore profits) is entirely led by grass-root workers? Unlikely.

Perfectly put.

jennywhitehorses · 06/05/2021 16:36

@GNCQ

It's so completely untrue it needs repeating

Ireland has been Nordic model for a few years. Both North and South. The first man to be arrested was arrested alongside three women. He wasn't convicted, what happened to the women in not known.
www.theguardian.com/society/2015/nov/05/northern-ireland-offence-of-paying-for-sex-first-arrest

In the Republic two Romanian women in their 20s were convicted of brothel keeping (working together for safety). They are the ones who got into the papers but there were others.
www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/republic-of-ireland/sex-workers-say-kildare-brothel-arrests-prove-law-is-not-fit-for-purpose-38198407.html

There are official reports for both north and south. They give the total number of convictions of men who have paid for sex. I can't be bothered to look it up but it's about 3 each.

jennywhitehorses · 06/05/2021 16:45

@HecatesCatsInFancyHats

The sex industry is a multi-million-pound global industry and yet we are supposed to believe that work to de-stigmatise purchasing sex (aka increase the consumer market and therefore profits) is entirely led by grass-root workers? Unlikely.

In Sweden the anti-Nordic model movement is led by Pye Jakobsson, who is a former sex worker and an academic. She runs Rose Alliance and says that of the nine board members, three have been evicted by police putting pressure on landlords.

She has also said
"Contrary to assertions that “police definitely don’t interfere” with sex workers, police can use pimping laws to ‘interfere’ with sex workers directly. Where it is illegal to provide premises for prostitution, landlords are obliged to evict sex workers, or face prosecution themselves. Police have been known to inform landlords that their tenant(s) sell sex, thus forcing the eviction. Sex workers working together for safety, as well as anybody cohabiting with a sex worker, can also be targeted, prosecuted for pimping one another or sharing in the income of prostitution, respectively."

HecatesCatsInFancyHats · 06/05/2021 19:44

Legitimising prostitution and pimps is not going to magically turn this into a peachy keen trade in which punters treat women with respect and traffickers no longer trade women for profit. This is a total nonsense. It is fundamentally offensive to view women as objects to be bought and sold for male pleasure. It is shameful to dress this up as progressive. As has been written about extensively- this is one of the few areas (porn too) where leftist men get whole heartedly behind the free market, funny that. The hypocrisy stinks. The only system I will ever get behind is one which protects women without giving men a free pass. When I say protects women - I don't mean protects the right of women to sell themselves, because whilst many of them have little choice, the trade is in and of itself an insult to all women and helps to commodify all women in the view of society. In Germany we see what a form of legitimisation of the trade means - degradation, women sold and tossed aside like fast food. Men need to know this is not ok. They need to understand what the problem is here - it isn't women's agency - it's a capitalist, individualist patriarchy with women at the bottom of the pecking order.

MargaritaPie · 06/05/2021 21:30

Germany has legalisation. That isn't the model which human rights orgs, health orgs, anti-trafficking orgs and sex worker unions (see list of signatures in link below) are campaigning for. That would be decriminalisation which New Zealand has

decrimnow.org.uk/open-letter-on-the-nordic-model/

HecatesCatsInFancyHats · 06/05/2021 21:48

I know. You have missed my point.

HecatesCatsInFancyHats · 06/05/2021 21:53

Under decriminalisation- the removal of all laws specific to prostitution- prostitution is legitimised and ultimately sanctioned. The entire point of my post is that society sanctioning prostitution is misogynistic and damaging to ALL women and therefore the least worst option is the Nordic Model because at least we are still clear that this is wrong, but that the pimps and punters bear the responsibility for criminal activity. Read the post again please.

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